Wild Card - Whose Shoes?

27. Rachel Tomlinson - a progressive head teacher

• Gill Phillips @WhoseShoes

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In the words of Yvonne Newbold MBE: “Whatever you're doing, please stop and find 35 mins to listen to this fabulous conversation between 2 of my favourite people. Listening to Rachel talk about the simplicity of kindness and empathy in transforming schools to welcome, include and make every child feel safe blew me away”

(Learn more  about Yvonne’s fantastic work at Newbold Hope in Episode 13)

I always hoped  this podcast would be about bringing in new people in order to bring in fresh ideas and perspectives.

Rachel Tomlinson is the head teacher of Barrowford school in Lancashire. I connected with her when she was a speaker at  Newbold Hope conference. Like Yvonne, I was blown away by the simplicity and humanity of Rachel‘s message. 

Lemon lightbulbs 🍋💡🍋 

  • Learn to love. Love to learn!
  • Inclusivity. Look through the lens of the child. including the Infant voice
  • Find out what matters to people #WMTY
  • If we tap into our shared humanity and connection, the systems and protocols fit around that; simple solutions follow
  • Healthcare professionals have lived experience too. Don’t put people in boxes
  • Not even healthcare professionals find it easy to navigate healthcare pathways!
  • “On the other side of the fence”, it feels so different.  And why is there a fence? 😢
  • Some children find school very difficult. Work WITH them and make sure everyone has the best experience
  • A school with no punishments and no rewards - unusual!
  • Restorative approach - for children and adults alike.  Learn from our mistakes
  • Go back and unpick what went wrong, to avoid similar outcomes in the future
  • Focus on restoring the relationship
  • Make the school feel safe enough for children to be honest and talk about  problems
  • Don’t let the small stuff escalate
  • Take the power imbalance away
  • Learn from lived experience – children and parents
  • Telling personal stories can be very painful - how can we get more people listening?
  • Let’s learn  (as medics do) from serious incidents; prevent permanent exclusions from school
  • Move away from the blame / shame culture. It breaks trust.
  • Shaming parents and children has dire and lasting consequences
  • Believe parents when they report problems and seek help
  • Children (people!) behave differently in different situations – find out why rather than be smug!
  • Don’t expect  parents to apologise for their child
  • If we contain the child in school in such a way that they erupt at home, we have work to do!
  • Feelings of inadequacy run deep. Don’t judge
  • Life is fragile - we are all one step away from being ‘on the other side of the fence’
  • Empathy increases when you become a parent yourself
  • Is what we provide good enough for our own children?
  • Children are just learning ‘how to be’.  Help them get it right, just as you would do with long multiplication 
  • Advocate for children – particularly those with less resilience
  • Different ‘sectors’ must work together for the benefit of the child – leave the ego at the door. 
  • No ‘cookie cutter’ children! Every child comes with a different experience, different circumstances, including young carers.
  • A culture of openness in the school means that teachers listen and understand
  • Be human. B

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I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.

Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.

Gill Phillips  00:10
My name is Gill Phillips and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes, a popular approach to co-production. I was named as an HSJ 100 Wild Card and want to help give a voice to others, talking about their ideas and experiences. I'll be chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, Whose Shoes wildcard is for you.

Gill Phillips  00:40
I always hoped that this podcast would be about networking and connecting. And this is exactly what's happening today. As some of you will know, I'm a big friend of Yvonne Newbold, and a big champion of the wonderful work that she does at Newbold Hope. You can listen to my conversation with Yvonne in Episode 13, which has been one of the most popular episodes of the podcast series so far. Anyway, I recently helped Yvonne Newbold with her Newbold Hope conference. It was a fantastic conference, very ‘Whose Shoes’ in style in terms of bringing in speakers from different perspectives. They were all passionate about improving the lives of children and families, particularly those affected by violent and challenging behavior, due to anxiety. I found it the most fascinating day, and I learned so much. I love the way that people from different sectors came together to support families. And of course, families don't think in sectors. They just have children who need support, to get the best start in life and want everyone to come together to support them. The speakers came from health care, education, academia and more. I had my scouting hat on to see who might make a good future podcast guest. Pretty much all of them to be honest, as they were such passionate people doing such great work. I reached out to one of the speakers, Rachel Tomlinson, who is my podcast guest today. Rachel is Head of Barrowford Primary School in Lancashire. The mission statement of the school is ‘Learn to love, love to learn’, and they aim for their pupils to be rounded and grounded, such a simple and inclusive message. Reading the evaluation sheets afterwards, so many people wanted to hear more from Rachel, that I thought it would be brilliant to invite her to speak as a podcast guest. And here she is. So welcome, Rachel. I'm so glad you could join me today. Can you tell me a little bit more about yourself, and what's important to you?

Rachel Tomlinson  02:56
Hi, Gill. It's a real privilege to join you. I've been listening and working my way through your podcast programme . So I feel really privileged to be part of it. I'm the head teacher at Barrowfield Primary School, which is in Lancashire It’s in East Lancashire -  you probably saw that from the accent. And I've been there for 14 years, which makes me feel really old. And as you say, our mission statements our logo is learn to love, love to learn. And that is in terms of our ethos, our values, our drive, it's about inclusivity it's about making every single child, the centre of our focus. And I often talk about lenses that we look through. And for us, it's really important that for every single child that we have in our school, we try to look through their lens and try to see the school experience through that lens, particularly those children for whom it's not an easy ride. And to make sure that we're doing everything we can to make them feel safe and valued and loved in order for them to be successful.

Gill Phillips  04:00
That's fantastic. It's so simple, isn't it - I think in terms of my Whose Shoes work, the idea of looking through a lens. And just seeing things a bit differently. I know the work that I've done around particularly young children and some quite interesting thoughts around the infant voice. There's a wonderful organization in Birmingham called Approachable Parenting. And as a result of coming along to a Whose Shoes event that we ran for young parents in Birmingham, they apparently changed the training that they were offering and flipped it to be through the infant voice. This is the baby's perspective. And they just found it very, very interesting in terms of people seeing things differently - that little baby lying there and waiting for people to look after it and nurture it. And what it might be thinking

Rachel Tomlinson  04:52
There's a fantastic programme that I'm desperate to try and get some of our staff trained in called ‘Roots of Empathy.’ I don't know if you’ve ever heard of it , it come out of New Zealand. And it just made me really smile, though, when you talked about that infant voice, because essentially Roots of Empathy is … the baby is the teacher. And so it's a new parent and the baby, and the baby wears a t-shirt that says, Teacher.

Gill Phillips  05:16
Oh, wow.

Rachel Tomlinson  05:17
And it's, I think, about 15 or 20 week programme, where the baby visits with parents, the second week in a three week block five or six times. So the children will learn about something pre visit, and then there's a visit and then there's a post visit thing. And that that kind of happens in blocks of three visits. And it's all about that relationship between the mother and the baby , or the parents and the baby. And the inference that very young children can pick up from that, you know, why is the baby crying now? Or why is Mommy or Daddy doing that? And it's about attachments and connection, isn't it? And it's how we inform those really early connections as babies ourselves.

Gill Phillips  05:57
Obviously, now I need to go off and research Roots of Empathy in New Zealand. This is by trouble isn't it? I get involved in so many things, interested in so many things. It's absolutely fascinating. And of course, my mind is now going off. I attended a fascinating session recently. So I think you'd love this Rachel. There's a guy, a doctor called Klaber who runs kindness sessions. And it brings in an international audience, yjy are such special sessions, and then someone called Nicki Macklin in New Zealand. And she led the most recent session, which I just went off on one about because she was talking about, I’ll try and get this right, Needles and Noodles. And it really linked with a very recent episode that I've done. So you probably haven't got to it yet. But I think you'll love the episode with Miles Sibley who's the founder of Patient Experience Library. And he's talking about the imbalance between medical evidence, medical reports, serious incidents, all this language that reinforces the medical side of things. And then patient stories, patient complaints, anecdotal stuff, softer stuff. And the Klaber session with Nicki Macklin. So in tune with that, and I think all of these different strands are coming together, aren't they in terms of the formal traditional way that we've seen things and the things that are accepted as being the way of doing things. And then, in my  imaginative people like you who look beyond that and see the human  being and see what really matters to people. And there's also a movement now - what matters to you. So there's a hashtag on Twitter, #WMTY. And again, there are sessions around what matters to you, bringing together some really extraordinary people. And it's people coming together regardless of whether they happen to be a doctor or a head teacher, or a parent or … and actually, obviously, people cross those boxes. And the head teachers have children too, or the chief exec has a mum with dementia, a child with learning disabilities, whatever it happens to be. So I suppose that's what I'm trying to do through Whose Shoes - bringing people together as people. And then some of those light bulb moments, we call them lemon light bulbs, in terms of, well, perhaps we can do things a bit differently.

08:30
And I think that's, that's really key and, and one of my frustrations and I try not to get frustrated nobody it goes to work wanting to do, you know, a bad job, but everybody wants to do their very best. And I think sometimes we get this veil comes down in front of us of, of system and protocol and process. And that kind of blinds us to the person and I think so when I talk about lens, and I talk about lens to our staff, is really so we keep our focus on the person and actually, the process and all the protocols and stuff can slot in afterwards, we can do that stuff. We just really need to have the human connection and see each other as people, because if we see each other as people, actually genuinely, and generally, we are kind, you know, we want to make a difference. We want to be kind, we want to kind of move all the peripheral stuff out of the way to get to the root of what we need. And, and I think if as soon as people can see each other as people and know that we're working hard to make that connection, both sides, then that's where it becomes really simple, then I think actually lots of the stuff that causes massive problems has really simple solutions to it. And often it's just having a connection with somebody

Gill Phillips  09:45
.It really is. Yeah, there's a tremendous synergy here. I've had some fun the last couple of weeks I've actually managed to do two Whose Shoes workshops in the room, which obviously has been less usual in a way Haven't really had a chance, we've done virtual events. But this was an event, one of them particularly relevant - Midlands Partnership Foundation Trust. And we were looking at how to start the event. And there was a fantastic, another Rachel, I think this podcast might be becoming a party of Rachels. So Rachel Crook, her name was, a young specialist nurse, but also a parent. So was it appropriate for her to be the person telling her lived experience story at the beginning of the workshop? Well, yes, it was, you know, she happened to be a healthcare professional. But she was a parent of two young children. And she, she just told it, how it was, her experiences. The fact that by being a healthcare professional, it didn't immediately mean that you knew the exact pathway through the system. It really, really didn't. And it was just so from the heart and so real, that it started our session in just the right place. And I hear this phrase, if you like, over and over in different work that I do, that when you're on the other side of the fence, then it feels so different. Well, why is that? And what can we do about that?

11:13
And why is there a fence and I think probably that that analogy of the fence is what I kind of talked about the the protocols and the processes and, and I think that there's such a lot of anxiety about getting it right that sometimes we get it really wrong, because we're so anxious about getting things right. And I think we just need to just sit next to each other and kind of dispel that notion of we’re at the other side of a fence or we're at different angles, because actually, we are all just people. And ultimately our goal is the same isn't it, to make sure that everybody in our care has the best experience. And I'm not naive. And I know there are tensions in that we have some children who find school really, really difficult. And that causes us anxiety. But it's just about trying to find a clearer view through the anxiety to make sure that that's not clouding judgments. And I think sitting down and seeing people is a really big part of that. So our school we, one of the things that we are, I guess notorious for or people know about us is that we have no punishments and no rewards, which is very unusual. So we have been punishment free for about 13 years, and reward free for about 10. And I think the the notion came from restorative approaches training that I was really lucky to access. And the lady who ran that just changed my life really, as a professional. And as a person, she's kind of one of my great big heroes. And she's so humble that she will be mortified for me to say that, but she kind of really changed my life and in terms of, of looking at that lived experience and looking at the behaviors that may come from part of that, and I kind of knew that academically, really, and think probably she was somewhat in the right place at the right time for me that to put all of that academic stuff into a real life context, because I had just come into leadership, school leadership, and fairly young, and it was probably the right time for me. But we follow a restorative approach. So if children get it wrong, and you know, not just children, if adults get it wrong, because actually, as human beings, we do get it wrong. It's part of being human. And actually, it's part of learning. So that's why it's really important for us that it's learned to love, love to learn. Because we can reframe mistakes in behavior in the same way that we frame mistakes in English or maths or spelling or science. And actually, the best scientists learn the most from their mistakes. So we can kind of frame that in the same way. So we learn from our mistakes and mistaken behavior, especially for children who are just learning how to be and learning how to do relationships, We’re not born knowing how to be a good friend, or do the right thing, in any given context. So it's our job as educators to educate them in that as well as teach them how to do long multiplication and spell tricky words correctly. So really, that's the focus. So when it goes wrong, there's no kind of great emotional involvement in the putting right of it, really. We wait till everybody's calm, we wait till everybody feels in a really safe place. And then we'll sit down and talk about what went wrong. And we talked about what went wrong kind of before it even went wrong. So we start at, did have some breakfast this morning. And you know, we go through all of those steps. And then you know, so unpick about how each of the parties felt at the time, and how that might have impacted on the way they reacted or how they saw the situation. And then we just talked about what we need to put it right. Because ultimately, it's about out restoring the relationship. It's not about the wrongdoing or the mistake or the event, it's about actually that that broke a relationship or harmed the relationship. So it's about restoring the relationship, putting the relationship back together. And that's how we've, we've operated and we operate like that with our four year olds. And we operate like that with our staff team when it goes wrong , and everything in between, and actually a lot between adults and children, we have those conversations between adults and children, as well.

Gill Phillips  15:29
And obviously very much in keeping with Yvonne Newbold’s work, isn't it? And also, I was talking to somebody this week, similar kind of conversation in a way. And she said to me that, in some schools, forgetting a pen could lead to a permanent exclusion. And I'm thinking, Well, how does that happen, and she was explaining that kind of escalation, a child perhaps knows, they're going to get in trouble. So therefore, they're excessively worried. And therefore, they kick off more, and therefore the reaction’s bigger, and they end up with the head teacher. And so it really is very interesting to hear how just taking it back to perhaps … did you have your breakfast? Or what can you do to remember your pen next time, or those kind of just simple …

Rachel Tomlinson  16:12
 So we're actually making school feel safe enough for somebody to say, “I've not got a pen”. I mean, that's not an issue in a primary school so much . But, you know, making school safe enough to say, I'm hungry, or I'm feeling really uncomfortable, or I can't do this, or this is making me feel really stressed and create, and that's about relationships, isn't it? And that's about taking that power imbalance away. And a lot of it is about power, isn't it taking that power imbalance away, and just saying, Actually, we just two people in a situation here, and we just need to find a way for this to work for both of us. And my job is to help you learn. So you need to be part of this relationship as well, because I can't do that by myself. And it is really key. And you know, don't let small stuff escalate - because it is often it's like that, you know, the grain in the oyster , isn't it these often the really small stuff that causes eventually the really big reactions and, and then really difficult situations.

Gill Phillips  17:11
So coming back to Yvonne’s conference, I was very privileged, as I know, you said you were, you know, to join that at all. And I did my little interviews with a couple of parents, and also with Dan, so a young man, who's now 17, I think, explaining that lens that you've been talking about. Now, I thought that was just incredibly valuable to get a young person actually talking about what it feels like - the build up of emotions or feelings or being out of control, and I’m really hoping - I just think it's so brave and so painful for people sometimes to tell such personal stories. So I guess through the podcast, I'm trying to give a channel for people who are brave enough to do that. So that we get those stories really listened to because I hear people all the time, like particularly perhaps the NHS people that I work with saying we need to listen to personal stories, but they're out there. A lot of taboo subjects are being broken, aren't they by people like Yvonne Newbold. So how do we get people to listen more?

18:20
And I think that is the crux of the question, really, and listen more in our industry, and I say industry in inverted commas, but in education, listening to children, and I think that voice should be so loud. And we should trust that they have lots to say. And you're right, it's about tackling really difficult situations. There are all kinds of uneven… and Yvonne talks about so well,  that shame that she was made to feel as a parent of a child who was violent, and that came through so strongly in the conference, and was a real, … you know, I listen to parents all day every day and children every day and it kind of made me left at the end of the conference .. I went to our staff and went, “Oh, crikey, we need to do more of this, we need to, we need to really think about how it feels to be parent and sharing some of that stuff.” Because it is difficult, and it is difficult to talk about openly, with pride about your child being permanently excluded from school, because the shame in that is so vast, and actually, we need to take that away as much as we can. Because often a child hasn't achieved a permanent exclusion by themselves, the school and you know, lots of other things that clearly had a role in that. So we need to enable our children or our parents to talk about those experiences where school has gone wrong, and it not be on them and not feel like they failed as a parent or the child has failed. And actually we need to take that sense of failure out of it in its entirety. So schools also can look at it. I was in school this week. We have a new child starting actually after the holiday Who has very recently experienced a permanent exclusion, and they came to visit, and we were talking about it. And the impact of school exclusion is massive. And I think we need to break down those barriers and for schools, and I think the medical system can teach us a lot in terms of looking at what went wrong and picking those pieces, because I think sometimes schools will say, there was nothing else I could do. And kind of that's the end of it, then, I'm not saying the schools permanently exclude lightly at all, because I'm absolutely certain they don't. But then almost when it is done, they've kind of … it's finished for them, because then the child is not at their school. So I think we need to have some kind of system where we really unpick what went wrong. And, and we do a review, like serious incident review, because it is a serious incident. It's life changing. For a child, it's life changing for a family, and really long lasting life changing experiences, really, and how do we unpick that so it stops happening? How can we empower schools to kind of go, alright, that felt like it was the only thing I could do at that time with that child. But I'm going to engage in a process to unpick, let's go right back to when they were in year one. And we started experiencing some difficulties. How could we have changed our approach then? So it didn't escalate to the point that it got to. And I think schools are quite defensive about that process. Parents and children are ashamed of it. And it's almost like there's a gulf in the middle. Really, we need to try and go Actually , there's no shame here. There's no failure. Let's just unpick what happened. And be much more pragmatic about it really.

Gill Phillips  21:43
Yeah, that's so important. And another thing that jumps out at me, you know, remembering from Yvonne’s conference was one of the mums talking about why don't people believe us,? you know, if people are brave enough, really or desperate enough to admit that their child is, in that case, perhaps violent at home and the kind of platitudes in terms of well, they're fine at school. And people are understanding, that's the build up of how the child's containing itself at school and feeling safe at home, to be able to explode or whatever. And I remember this mum saying, you know, why don't people believe us because if we're gonna make something up, we wouldn't be making up about our child hitting us at home, or whatever it might be. Because the shame that goes with that, we'd be making up lovely things that happen in our family. So I guess it's trust, and just listening and believing and then working together.

Rachel Tomlinson  22:38
That particular Mom took my breathtaking really.

Rachel Tomlinson  22:41
And that particular statement about if we were gonna make things up, why would we do that? And I think I'm smiling when you say he doesn't do that at school. Because one of the things that brings teachers to blows nearly is when one teacher says to another, “well, he didn't behave like that for me”. See, as professionals, you can kind of feel that, how dare you say that it's my fault, because he doesn't behave like that for you. So why would we think it would be any less bad and in fact, it's 100 times worse for us to go to parents, “We’ll, they don't behave like that for us”. And I think there are all kinds of reasons that children behave differently in different contexts. And that, again, was one of the follow up conversations that I went and had with staff. And one of the big things about the conversations I often have with new teachers and that we often have with new teachers is that, under no circumstances, do we ever make a parent feel like they have to apologize for their child that you know, as a mom never wants to be in a position where I'm apologizing for my child existing or you know, anything about my child that is the most precious thing any parent has. So that is incredibly, just, that is incredibly impactful in a really negative way, and breaks a relationship almost immediately, you know, there's no trust in a relationship that makes you feel ashamed of, of your child. So we, we try and steer away from that thing where we go ”can just have a word?”, which I think makes parents’ heart sink. And you know, we've heard lots of parents who've come to us after negative experiences at school, say, you know, I couldn't go in the school gates because I was so embarrassed. Or I, you know, I felt like I couldn't look at any of the parents, it broke my relationships with the other parents down, we stopped getting invitations to birthday parties, all of those kinds of things. And absolutely, we need to really listen to that parent voice and try to unpick if there is a difference in behavior, rather than being quite smug about the fact that we're getting the good end of it. Actually, sometimes, and again, this conversation we have frequently about some of the children in our school, if children are behaving in a certain way at school and in a different way at home. Actually, we've got a job of work to do if we've created a context in which children feel like they have to mask and change their emotions and resist the behaviors so it does explode at home, we've got a job of work to do so. So our context changes for that child and they don't feel like they have to mask, they do feel safe enough to express what's going on, for them and with them. So it doesn't end up in a big explosion at home. And just to unpick those and and unpick them in a in a really pragmatic, rational, reasonable way, really, with no judgment. And I think it's the judgment element that's really important. So that we can acknowledge that people do behave differently in different contexts, children do behave differently at home and at school.

Gill Phillips  22:41
Yeah.

Gill Phillips  25:39
And I had a bit of a lemon light bulb there in terms of it being the same between teachers so “well, they don't misbehave in my class”. Well, perhaps it was because they felt so contained within that earlier class. And now they actually feel safer with the teacher where they kick off a bit, and it could be the same. I remember … it's funny, I think parenthood is just so deep, isn't it, and that feeling, you want to be proud of your children. And I immediately went back to … there was one school dinner lady when my oldest child was very young, and walking around the village, if he was gonna kick off and be a bit difficult, we'vewe’d meet her,   We’d just meet her. It was just like this fate, that you just got this feeling without anything being said like, “Yeah, there he goes again”. And you want to say, well, it's not always like that, and really it wasn't. But just … it was like, in the supermarket, you know, we've always got a bit of wine in the trolley, you always meet the most judgmental person who's sort of looked down the supermarket trolley and only see wine or, you know, whatever it is, absolutely so human.

Rachel Tomlinson  26:46
Yeah, it is. And I guess we're so invested in our children. And I think sometimes we get carried away by that. And I always say, and I've got two children, and I always said that becoming a parent didn't make me a better teacher. It didn't change my practices in the classroom, I don't think. But it made me better at engaging with parents and definitely made me see the whole process very, very differently. And each year, it definitely changed my interactions with parents for the better. It made me much more empathic, it made me it made me much kinder. And I guess that's maturity as well, I don't think Yeah, going in as a 22 year old Look at me, I know everything. And I don't think I ever did that. Hope I never did that. But I know that, especially when my daughter, my eldest, started school, just completely kind of rocked my foundation is really, really think about I'm really reset myself as a professional and, and we talked about isn't good enough for eyes. And I was lucky, my children came to our school. So as primary, and I think that I feel really privileged and really fortunate that that could happen. And you know, one of the things that we always say, as a senior leadership team is, is it good enough for our eyes, because if it's not good enough for us, it's not good enough for anybody's Is it good enough for us, for us to be screaming and shouting, or all of those things. And that's kind of led a lot of our practice, really, because I would feel murderous if a teacher gave my child's face and shouted at them. So if it's not good enough, for mine, it's not good enough for anybody's. And as a rule of thumb, it's served us pretty well really. And in our engagements with parents, and you know, and once my children moved on to high school high, I'm the world's worst bear. And then we'll say, Oh, God, if she comes again, but just just the advocating really for, because my children, you know, they can fight their own battles, really, and there'll be okay, because they've got resilience around them. But there are some children who haven't. So if there is an injustice, I kind of have to advocate on behalf of all the other children in the whole world and it frustrates my children and mentally would just leave him or just leave a sorry, I'm alright with it, just leave it in account. But that's the cross that they have to bear on Good Friday. But But I guess, just in our interactions with parents, just to moderate that and think, Well, if that was me sitting at this table, how would I feel if this was happening? So you know, just having the empathy and becoming a parent, I think, and seeing my children grow, and each different stage actually the empathy has changed somewhat because we can we can relate more, can't we? And that's just natural.

Gill Phillips  29:21
So, walk in my shoes.

Rachel Tomlinson  29:23
Walk in my shoes. Yeah. And there, but for the grace of God go I, as well

Gill Phillips  29:28
With everything! 

Rachel Tomlinson  29:29
With everything. Every, every little thing, and you know, this could be me next week sitting at a table.

Gill Phillips  29:37
Your  approach is so refreshingly human. I know it said in the feedback for Yvonne’s conference that quite a few parents wanted to clone you, Rachel.

Rachel Tomlinson  29:46
And oh god.  I'm not sure the world's ready for me,  let alone more than one of me. And I think one of the things that really struck me about Yvonne’s conference and it was so fantastic in the diversity of it,  in the fact that it was lots of different people coming together to talk about the same thing. One of the things that really struck me was, as a school our elationships with all the people who may be involved in a child. And sometimes we don't get that right because as different sectors, I think sometimes we prejudge people. And I think it's really important that as sectors we kind of aren't going into bat for our own sector, we're going into bat for the child and let's put any of our … but you don't understand what it's like to be a teacher or you don't understand what it's like to be a paediatrician or you don't understand what it's like to be a speech and language therapist. And I think sometimes, we kind of go into those conversations and we are a speech therapist rather than a person who's working on behalf of. ….  And I think it's really important that as professionals, when we are talking about child, one thing, we never forget is that we are talking about a child, we're not talking about a process or a programme or a system, or … we're talking about a child, and keeping that humanity really at the centre of it. But also the thing about parking your egos outside the door, this isn't about anybody being better at it than anybody else. This is about us all working together to. …And I guess I'm singing to you directly, because that's about co creation, isn't it?

Gill Phillips  31:18
It is yeah, and as a cricket fan myself. That idea, I think that phrase will stick with me - not going into bat for your profession, but to go into bat for the child. Very powerful. So that's a lemon light bulb. And I'm aware in terms of other things we might have talked about, and some of the work that I've done, which really, really interests me around young carers, and whether schools are aware, which I think they are to hugely different degrees, that they've got children in school, who are actually caring for, and they might think in terms of a sibling, but it could also be for their mother or … a significant caring role, and how the school can adapt to that or be aware of that.

Rachel Tomlinson  32:02
You're absolutely right. And I think that's happening more and more often isn't it. And for me, it's about understanding every child, and it's a lens on every child. And I think every child comes to us with a different experience. And it's about understanding that is the case - that we're not talking about cookie cutter children, we're not talking about everybody coming with the same experience. So if there is a willingness to understand that we are all coming from different places, and if there is that openness to the fact that everybody's experience is going to be different, then actually, the lot of young carers becomes much better, doesn't it because there is an openness in the school to kind of go … well, actually a little bit late because, or haven't done this because or I'm not wearing my school jumper because you know, and all of that stuff. And you know, in the scheme of reality, a school jumper is not even. anything really. But I think it's just about the openness to understand that people are coming with different lived experiences. So many young carers some are I’ll, some have other things going on in their lives. And I think it is just acknowledging that those different experiences create different contexts for different children.

Gill Phillips  33:18
So the lens of the child, walk in my shoes, keep things simple, humanity,

Rachel Tomlinson  33:25
Be human, be kind And you know, I keep coming back to … if we were just kind to each other, none of this stuff would happen. If we were just kind and we just …. There's a thing about being kind. But there's also a thing about … almost an acknowledgement that, and an understanding that nobody's going into a situation to make it difficult for anybody else. Let's just look at, we talked about the Grace model, one of our teachers told us about the Grace model, - going into a situation, thinking that this person is okay. And not the opposite. And I think sometimes we go in thinking, Oh, this is gonna be a really hard conversation, or this is gonna be an awful situation. And actually, if we are kind on the one hand, and then approach every situation with ‘this person is okay’ Actually, it will be okay. That would expedite a lot of good stuff.

Gill Phillips  34:21
I think it would change the world.

Rachel Tomlinson  34:24
it really would.

Gill Phillips  34:25
Yeah. So thank you so much, Rachel. It's been an incredible conversation. We'd never actually spoken before we went live and did our recording. So I don't think either of us knew where it was gonna go. But it feels like a really useful conversation. I'm so grateful.

Rachel Tomlinson  34:40
Thank you so much for having me, Gill. It's a pleasure.

Gill Phillips  34:43
I hope you have enjoyed this episode. If so, please subscribe now to hear more of these fascinating conversations on your favorite podcast platform. And please leave a review. I tweet as @WhoseShoes. Thank you for being on this journey with me and let hope that together we can make a difference