A blaze of ‘lemon lightbulbs’ today talking to Kate Pound, a fabulous nurse focusing on ‘JUST DO IT’ actions that make a big difference.
Kate grew up in a hostel for fishermen and that rich and varied experience gave her a deep understanding of people and the imagination to find alternative ways of reaching the so-called ‘hard to reach’. She is a great storyteller and you will pick up LOTS of practical tips.
Kate is a trustee of the Fishermen’s Mission and we would love you to learn more about them – and appreciate fishermen beyond the occasional Fish and Chips supper!
Lemon lightbulbs 🍋💡🍋
What are YOU passionate about?
Some links
1. Home - Fishermen's Mission (fishermensmission.org.uk)
2. SeaFit - Fishermen's Mission (fishermensmission.org.uk)
4. Jar of Joy
5. Enjoy earlier episodes about health inequalities – eg Dr Farzana Hussain
We LOVE it when you leave a review!
If you enjoy my podcast and find these conversations useful
please share your thoughts by leaving a review (Apple is easiest to leave a review) and comment on your favourite episodes.
I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.
Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.
A blaze of ‘lemon lightbulbs’ today talking to Kate Pound, a fabulous nurse focusing on ‘JUST DO IT’ actions that make a big difference.
Kate grew up in a hostel for fishermen and that rich and varied experience gave her a deep understanding of people and the imagination to find alternative ways of reaching the so-called ‘hard to reach’. She is a great storyteller and you will pick up LOTS of practical tips.
Kate is a trustee of the Fishermen’s Mission and we would love you to learn more about them – and appreciate fishermen beyond the occasional Fish and Chips supper!
Lemon lightbulbs 🍋💡🍋
What are YOU passionate about?
Some links
1. Home - Fishermen's Mission (fishermensmission.org.uk)
2. SeaFit - Fishermen's Mission (fishermensmission.org.uk)
4. Jar of Joy
5. Enjoy earlier episodes about health inequalities – eg Dr Farzana Hussain
We LOVE it when you leave a review!
If you enjoy my podcast and find these conversations useful
please share your thoughts by leaving a review (Apple is easiest to leave a review) and comment on your favourite episodes.
I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.
Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.
Kate Pound
Fri, May 26, 2023 12:01AM • 48:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, kate, fishermen, love, patient, porters, health inequalities, shoes, family, lived, vaccinations, amazing, staff, lovely, difficult, feel, podcast, run, mission, day
SPEAKERS
Kate Pound, Gill Phillips
Gill Phillips 00:10
My name is Gill Phillips and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes, a popular approach to co- production. I was named as an HSJ 100 Wild Card and want to help give a voice to others talking about their ideas and experiences. I'll be chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes, if you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, Whose Shoes Wild Card is for you.
Gill Phillips 00:40
So today, I have the pleasure of talking to someone who I've known for many years, but in many ways have not really known at all. I first met Kate Pound, about 10 years ago, I knew her as a mover and a shaker within the School for Healthcare Change Agents, with which we have both been closely associated. We both love doing things for initiatives like NHS Change Day, Fab NHS staff, little actions that make a difference to people without asking for permission. Anyway, Kate popped up on my radar again, when we both attended an online session recently run by the Q community: How to be more pirate. I knew I would reconnect with some of my pirate friends there. And I was not disappointed. Kate was telling some of her personal story on the webinar in a way that I'd never heard it before. Growing up in a hostel for fishermen, one day, there might be a royal visit. The next day, there might be people drunk in the corridor, but hopefully not both on the same day. It was fascinating. doing fabulous initiatives such as Healthcare on the Harbour, dentistry in Portakabins. It reminded me of Bob Mortimer on "Would I lie to you?" = that kind of thing, you know, trying to work out what's true, and what isn't. So making things accessible for fishermen and their families. Just the sort of imaginative thinking that I love to feature on the podcast. And in Kate's day job in Nottingham, initiatives, such as the 'Just Do It' form: easy ways to get small amounts of funding to provide something effective, rather than having to jump through so many hoops that you lose the will to live. And indeed spend more money going through the bureaucracy than you would if you actually made the change. I wanted to hear more. And I thought you, my lovely listeners, would do too. So I'm delighted to welcome Kate to the podcast and look forward to inspiring you through storytelling, and creating a blaze of lemon lightbulb moments today. So welcome, Kate, where would you like to start?
Kate Pound 02:56
Well, thanks, Gill, for such a lovely introduction. That's amazing, I guess really should start at the beginning. So I probably have described as a very divergent family in the fact that my dad came from a very small fishing community in the north of Scotland. And my mom was Londoner, so that kind of like already said things were going to be very different. And my dad, when they got married, my dad was actually working in the fishermen's mission. And this was really important to him because his own father was lost at sea. And they supported him when as a child. He was only five when he lost his dad. So it was really kind of like he lived through that experience. So we say you start looking at our family. So my dad, as I said, from Petersfield and had my mum's from London. Because of the mission, my sister was born in Lowestoft, and I was born in Shetland. So you know, we do dotted around the country, to many fishing ports. And, I mean, I absolutely love the experience. So being in that environment, I remember as a little, little child going, we were living in North Shields at the time. And you know, we'd have all the fishing boats outside. And literally, we could just walk several metres and we would be at the harbour. Next door, there was the shop that used to give the supplies to the boats. And so they had great big bags of like, sugar, lentils, all this lovely stuff. And we just called him uncle Gordon. And he used to just let us play. I mean, goodness knows why he did that. Because one day we mixed the sugar with the split peas. And he was there left with this massive, a big sack of sugar and split peas. You know what he must have thought of us. But he just continued loving us. And I think that's probably because the work that my dad had … well we do as a family. My dad's would be outreach to those communities and helping them in their most difficult days and then to like, you know, obviously supporting them through change. So when there's been a reduction in boat fishing vessels and all that, it can be very challenging. So, so we lived in North Sheilds. So from Shetland, we went to North Sheilds, North Sheilds we went to Fleetwood and that was potentially the first hostel that I lived at … Fleetwood was a larger hostel. And we'd been there for about three years, maybe a bit longer, when we then went to Grimsby. And this was the biggest fishermen's mission hostel at the time. It had 52 bedrooms, and we had four flats. So it all sounds very posh, doesn't it? But it was such an amazing place to live, you know, because there was always people around, you never kind of got lonely, there's always people there. And yes, you saw the bad days, but you saw many good days. So Christmas Day would always be with about 100 fishermen. So we used to open our Christmas presents on Christmas Eve because we knew that mum, dad were going to be really busy on Christmas Day. And as we got older, we were given jobs like, you know, my mum knew that she wanted like five brussels sprouts. And so you'd have to count all the brussels sprouts and do things like that.
Gill Phillips 06:24
And that's a lot of people.
Kate Pound 06:29
A lot of Brussels sprouts, and we used to obviously have to help … because there were catering staff and they would have the time off over Christmas. So my dad would roll his sleeves up. And all the other assistants would roll their sleeves up and the wives and children, whoever was there, it was all hands to the deck. And then I mean, it was just lovely, Christmas dinner was sociable with 100 fishermen. Yeah, it was lovely. And then as the day went on, my mum and dad would still be busy. And I just remember sitting in one of the lounges, being in the lounge playing with one of the fishermen with my Barbie, my Cindy, and you know, how weird is that? You know, because this big fisherman was playing Barbie with me.
Gill Phillips 07:14
Probably loving it.
Kate Pound 07:16
Well, yeah. And unfortunately, the you know, there's lots of families that had separated and that was the reason why they were living in the hostel. Because, they had separated from their families. And so doing that with us, and playing was kind of like, I suppose kind of healing in a way because it meant that they that, you know, they valued that time because it reminds them of their children and that opportunity to be enjoying children again. And it was just lovely. So yeah, so that was a very hectic Christmas. And it was quite interesting. Because after a few years of our Christmases like that our friends of our family would then actually I say, "Oh, can we come and join you for Christmas?" Because they didn't realise that we had such a fabulous Christmas that they you know, they didn't want to miss out on it.
Gill Phillips 08:07
So yeah, just sitting around your own Christmas table with a small turkey and a few crackers would seem a little bit of a poor relation in comparison. I mean, a really life influencing childhood. And I think that shows, you know, from what I know of you since.
Kate Pound 08:25
Yeah, I completely agree. And it's just kind of mentioned before, you know, some days were very dark. And we're witnessing violence, which were very difficult because often, you know, sometimes it would also include my dad being being attacked, which wasn't kind of nice. We used to have a problem. So because mission fishermen are known for like millionaires ones April the next day. So they kind of often waste their money on alcohol and things like that. And I had some problems in the fact that they would ask my dad for subs for permission, give them some subs before they get the next time on the boat. And my dad said no. The man would often go home and complaining about Mr. Slater. So I used to get it in the neck at school, which was difficult, but you kind of either you have to look at it in a way that you know, that was a protective family. And I don't remember being like pained by it. I don't remember like hating them or anything like that. I just remember, I felt sorry for them. Because there was a lot of poverty in the area as well. You know, I mean, my parents didn't get paid a lot because it was a charity but we always had fish on the table, literally. So we went from like these real low points where you know, my dad would be attacked or, you know, black eyes would never, never be appropriate for the school pick up but we then also got the amazing days. So every year, there would be a celebration, a big fundraising really at Grimsby. And we'd have an open docks. So many people don't go on the docks. And we wanted to give people that experience of that. So we'd have a fishing boat that people could go on, and have a look around, we'd have the, you know, the Navy fishery protection boats, and we’d have a lifeboat, and we’d do demos and all this sort of lovely stuff. And that really gave people a wonderful experience, we tried really hard to get a good name to come and open it. So one year, we had Princess Alexandra. So my mum was obsessively cleaning. She was terrible. I joked that I should put a plaque on the toilet, because princess Alexandra sat here, that kind of means a lot doesn’t it?
Gill Phillips 10:54
I think it does, yeah.
Kate Pound 10:56
Yeah, but It was amazing. Like being you know, you can go from being with people that are addicted to alcohol one minute and you know, living on the streets, rough sleeping to having royalty visit you. And, you know, it's given me that ability, I suppose to think about how I work with different people. And, you know, it's easy for any of us to say, oh, that's never going to happen to me. But there's a lot of young people especially that, you know, that perhaps can't afford housing or heating or, you know, so it's a very much a problem today. And that really helped me to get empathy, which I then obviously brought into nursing.
Gill Phillips 11:39
Yeah, yeah, that's incredibly … well, I think the whole thing is really informative. I mean, I'm learning so much about … who knows about fishing communities unless you're part of it and to be able to connect, I can imagine and me as a child, I remember one of the highlights was going and sitting in a police car. So it's the same kind of thing, isn't it to actually get a little bit steeped into somebody else's experience. But I can see how that sort of richness in terms of health inequalities and the change leader work that you do now, must have been very formative. And tell us abou ... I mentioned I think in the introduction, I was fascinated by this health on the harbour side. And just the story behind that in terms of why would that be needed Kate?
Kate Pound 12:23
So I have the privilege now being a trustee for the fishermen's mission. So I kind of bring that experience of living in the mission. And it's very much that family. And what we realized is that there was a neglect. So fishermen, if the weather's good, they go out. And it doesn't matter if they've got appointment with the doctor. It doesn't matter if they've got a dental appointment, if the weather's good. And that's money. Yeah. So they have to get out. And it's kind of recognizing that because of those things, they do not access, or find it difficult to access health care. So the fisherman's mission with another organization, developed a programme, it was just a pilot programme initially called ‘Sea Fit.’ And that was offering health care checkups and everything at the harbour. So we have dentistry we so … during COVID, we realised that a lot of the fishermen weren't able to get vaccinations, because it's difficult to get through nowadays. So we have a lot of Filipino overseas workers. And it's, it's really tricky for them because they have a transit visa, which means then basically have to live on the boat. And I kind of liken it, you know, to if we imagine we said to the, our overseas workers that come into their NHS, you have to live on the ward, right? And that's it. It's incredibly difficult, you know, so they're almost hidden, because you don't see them, you don't see these people and the mission saw them and the mission realized that they had to do something. So we organized with healthcare providers to get vaccinations, then, you know, literally, we had people climbing onto the boats to give the vaccinations. And that was amazing, because also what it also gave them is their status that they been vaccinated, because without that, you know, status, they wouldn't have been able to return home. Yeah, it was more than just, you know, being protected, because obviously there is small community, at close quarters, you know, the COVID affected the fishing crew would be probably fatal. Yeah, for some of them. But actually not being able to get back to your families, especially when there's like the world pandemic, I think would have been dreadful. So, by doing the vaccinations by giving them the documentation they need, it actually allowed them to return to their families at that difficult time.
I'm really proud. Yeah. And, you know, I think those, when you look at what the organization has done, you kind of now go back and kind of say, well, things can be done in, in the NHS, we can deliver things differently, you know, who would have thought 10 years ago, we wouldn't be having health care at the harbour, we'd be having GP service. And, you know, health prevention, all these things. Focus on the harbour and what tends to be that they have like a, because a traveling small, like a caravan or something a bit bigger than that, and they'll actually have all that set up. So people can come in, have their checkups or various tests, such as like hepatitis, things like that. Also, they do blood blood tests for high cholesterol or any other issues. And you know, they've picked up undiagnosed diabetes,, high blood pressure, all these things that actually could have been potentially life threatening for them. And then the dentistry was a later innovation. And it was amazing. I just love the dentists. So they literally drive a mobile dentist, bus, dentist truck, and they take it to the harbour. And it meant that the families were able to access NHS dentists as well. So during COVID, it was really difficult because income really dropped because nobody wants to buy the fish, there wasn't the restaurants, so it was really difficult. Of course, you know, financially, they were really hit , the fishing community were really hit. So recognition for that. I mean, we all know it's difficult getting an NHS dentist anyhow. But when you've got the added problem of actually financial difficulty, even if you do have an NHS dentist, it really, it's good that we were able to see children, mums, grandparents, you know, we were able to take care of that community. And, it's given people respect, because if you have lots of tooth decay and sense you could lose your teeth then that affects your confidence levels. Yeah. So, so again, you know, very proud of that service. And, actually, last week, the Sea Fit, won a fishing news prize, which is really exciting. So it's the whole fishing community have this newspaper. And I guess it's kind of like the Nursing Times for fishermen. And they won a big prize in it. So it's, it's being recognized,
Gill Phillips 17:49
I should think so too! That's amazing.
Kate Pound 17:50
Yeah. And so Bola Owolabi, from the health inequalities team, director for health inequalities was amazed.She actually came down and visited the service.
Gill Phillips 17:50
Oh, wow.
Kate Pound 17:51
And she has used their service as an example of what can be done about where we place care, and how we get it accessible for people.
Gill Phillips 18:15
That's extraordinary, Kate, and it reminds me in terms of perhaps themes running through the podcast, so two things come to mind from what you've said. And that's how I love to link into other examples. So I did one episode with Rosie Murphy, who's a fantastic midwife leading on health inequalities. And we ran a Whose Shoes workshop together in Croydon, and we ran it at the local Asian center and really engaged with the local community. And then I found out more about them. So nothing to do with my work with Rosie, the kind of work they're doing at the community centre, really using it as a healthcare hub, and doing exactly those sort of things, you know, just checking people's blood pressure or talking to them about health. And obviously, saying, actually, it's really important that you see the GP and being that kind of segway between the formal services, and just saving lives really, isn't it ultimately?
Kate Pound 19:10
Oh, completely, completely. And again, it's those hard to reach communities.
Gill Phillips 19:15
And again, my very first podcast conversation was with Dr. Farzana Hussain who I love to bits and she's a GP in I think, the most deprived borough in London, and the stuff that she was doing, she talks about the stuff that she was doing during the pandemic. And again, we need to keep up with ordinary things. So immunisations for children, let's have an outdoor clinic, let's have a drive through clinic. And it just feels the same kind of spirit is what you're saying about the health on the harbour side - that there are different ways of doing things aren't there to reach people?
Kate Pound 19:51
Absolutely. And I think because I knew we were doing that at the mission and I daresay it would have happened anyhow, I kind of encourage and say … “Get a bus”. Because you know, there's lots of rough sleepers in London, what can we do to get vaccinations to those rough sleepers, and it can be done. And they set up a bus and it went round all London and various places. And again, those people probably wouldn't have been able to access. Because the thing is, when you're say, like the Filipinos, their visa, maybe rough sleepers, because they don't have an address, it's really difficult to register at a doctor, at a GP. And if you don't register, it means you just don't get the opportunity then to be offered the vaccinations. So, so very important,
Gill Phillips 20:39
Very important. And then again, another example that I heard of, and I mean, obviously, some of these examples, you've got to share quite anonymously, because there was a GP practice that I heard of, who were just wanting their local population to be vaccinated. That was all they were worried about, you know, for the benefit of everybody. And they had quite a large Brazilian community. And they have Brazilian cleaners. And basically, they served as that, like, linking the two. So the fact that they trusted the GPs, and the fact that they knew their friends, and they could say, “Look, it's okay, come along, nobody's going to be asking all sorts of difficult questions, just come along and have your vaccinations”. And it's a win win, really, isn't it? Because wouldn't we all want that to happen? But it takes that little bit of imagination, doesn't it and finding a way around things, rather than just hitting the walls full on.
Kate Pound 21:35
Completely. I mean, Royal London … they ran a vaccination clinic in Stratford in the shopping centre. And again, I remember contacting one of the nurses in the team, and just saying, I've got somebody can they be … and it's like, just send them down. we vaccinate everybody, because we want everybody to be vaccinated. So and it's just that real, you know, being open minded, that actually, you shouldn't exclude this group, we shouldn't exclude people from the opportunity. It’s also that, that group of people potentially would be hard to hit with COVID. So you know, it's more important than ever, that we help people and reduce the gap and reduce inequalities that people face.
Gill Phillips 22:20
Again, I remember Farzana said that she had phoned up the people who weren't coming forward for a vaccination - not to tell them they had to have one, but to listen to them and find out what they were worried about. And of course, in the process of that, talking to somebody trusted, like their GP, that they've got a relationship with. Not everybody, but more come forward. So it's the same human factors really, isn't it?
Kate Pound 22:47
Yeah. And remembering that we're all human. And we all have that, that need to kind of be empathetic or to feel cared for, you know, those are fundamental bits that make us humans.
Gill Phillips 23:01
Yeah, absolutely. So okay, changing tack a little bit, then Kate, I think I mentioned in the introduction, something that I call in my head … and whether it is actually what it was called … the ‘just do it’ form because I absolutely love that. Is that something you can tell us more about?
Kate Pound 23:18
Absolutely.
Gill Phillips 23:19
And that's something like a lemon light bulb from this podcast that people could do the same couldn't they, How good would that be?
Kate Pound 23:26
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I should always remember the first big improvement programme I was involved in at Nottingham Hospitals, working in the emergency department. And we will ask staff, what quick wins, what are the things that will make a difference? And one of the ideas was “I'd like to have a docking station in the in the treatment room.” So like, it's where they do stitches and other kinds of things. Because if I got that, then I can offer people the chance of putting their iPhones in and play music to distract them. So it was like a great idea. But then we had to try and access money. And it was really difficult. In the end, our consultant just says, “Don't worry. I'm off to John Lewis”. And he came back with a docking station for them, which was brilliant, but it made us realize as an improvement team, that it's really difficult for staff to access money and these are quick wins stuff. This shouldn't be this like layer of bureaucracy, just to get to change a light bulb, you just don't need that. So with colleagues, they set up a JUST DO IT fund. And Tim Guyler was like key in that and he still works at Nottingham Hospitals, brilliant, amazing guy. And so the just do it fund was accessible money. It was donated by the charity, hospital charity, and people could access it with a simple form. And then what we would also do is we kind of ask people to tell us the story of what difference does it make? Yes And then we'd have the JUST DO IT awards. And it was lovely. So we'd have all the posters up, the comms team would make these beautiful posters for for the people who had got the just do it funds. And we would then have this chance where they’d met the board and any other visitors. So I remember Jackie Linton came with me on one. If you remember Jackie Linton?
Gill Phillips 25:22
I remember Jackie. Yes.
Kate Pound 25:25
Yeah. And it was just lovely. And so you know, some of the real stories that really impacted on me was the surgical porters. So their simple thing was, I would like to have a blanket warmer up, because so City hospitals, like long corridors old building, and patients will get cold. And they just wanted to keep patients warm.
Gill Phillips 25:53
And it's important, isn't it surgically as well?
Kate Pound 25:56
Well, this is the thing. So these people were thinking about, “I want to care for them for this person, I want to wrap them up and keep them warm when they come”. And that's all they were thinking about. But actually what they didn't realize that, as you say, surgically going in at your, your optimum temperature, your core temperature actually reduces time in recovery. So it meant that just by the porter saying “I want a blanket warmer,” it actually helped with the throughput and, you know, led to a change. And it was amazing, and I just love it, where the ideas come together for the team and we actually see that whole team impact.
Gill Phillips 26:36
They’re brilliant examples. And I love it when people are actually listening to the porters because it doesn't always happen. So no hierarchy, just people isn't it?
Kate Pound 26:46
Porters are ... you must use your porters because they're like gold dust. They are the people that go to every ward, every ward in the hospital, they'll be able to tell you which ward they wouldn't want to be a patient on. They know all this. So use your hospital porters for find out what frustrates them, what annoys them and you know, then we have got an opportunity to improve. And its patient output at the end, but by using their eyes and ears, we've got a real opportunity to make a difference.
Gill Phillips 27:18
And I mean, I think you know, Kate that we use poems quite heavily in Whose Shoes and some of them are a bit more in depth, and some of them are really dead simple. And one of them is let me try and remember it.
27:33 “There was a hospital Porter called Jim, who thought consultants could be rather dim. He'd worked there so long, he knew what was wrong. But nobody thought to ask him”
Kate Pound 27:43
Brilliant.
Gill Phillips 27:46
And that really just makes the point, you know that people have got eyes and ears and the people that the patients probably trust and just get chatting to a little bit. And fantastic that you're listening. And what a brilliant, very shareable example that is - keep people warm!
Kate Pound 28:04
Absolutely. And so one of the porters, I always remember them saying to me, it’s a radiology porter was saying, we're probably the one group of staff that have the most one on one time, yes, with the patient, because we actually, you know, taking them up taking them down. And we're probably the only person that has that amount of time together with the patients. So it's a really good opportunity to find out more about the patient, what they're worried about, and how they can help them. So you know, it's just lovely.
Gill Phillips 28:33
And we did a Whose Shoes project with Kingston hospital actually around operating theatres. And again, that was one of the scenarios that came through that the porters were saying that people might ask them something that, you know, because they were approachable, something that really should have been asked to the surgeon, but someone saying … do you think … and just coming out with something really perhaps quite medical that obviously they can't answer, but it shows the kind of relationship and trust and the concerns that people have got, if only people would create the conditions I guess for them to feel safe to talk and to listen to them?
Kate Pound 29:06
Yeah, absolutely. So when I went to Nottingham, we did a improvement programme in radiology. And we worked a lot with the porters and we discovered that the radiology porters, there was one. So two sites. On each site, there was one person basically walking around trying to find patients every day, because patients move, the system’s not updated so we lose the equivalent of one person every day to find patients basically, because if they don't … if they're not there, then they have to come back to the hub and kind of go well, where are they? So the porters then created a great piece of work, and I shall always remember one of them, saying to me, I can't … because one of the porters wrote a poem and he was amazing, but this other porter said, Well, I can't write poems or anything like that, but I like doing cartoons. And he did things like … his cartoons were amazing. One of them was… you know, it was getting the point across. And he'd add captions on it. So this cartoon was a porter with a wheelbarrow, going up to the nurse's station, saying, be sure you order the right type of transport. And it was just that subtle way of getting messages across. And, you know, again, it's using those hidden talents of our staff that we don't realize that they have.
Kate Pound 29:06
Yeah, and then people just enjoy that so much. And that member of staff probably gets more respect amongst their team, because “Hey, I didn't realize you could do brilliant cartoons”, or play the piano or whatever it might be. I love that. Absolutely love that. Brilliant.
Kate Pound 30:46
It was brilliant.
Gill Phillips 30:47
So I want to give at this point a shoutout to Nottingham Hospitals, because back in January, we did a Whose Shoes workshop with the maternity team. And they're the first trust that have concentrated on home birth. So already that's innovative. And the way that Lisa Common and her team have written up that Whose Shoes event in terms of proper research, and all of the pledges and following up to see what happens as a result of the pledges. So just like your ‘just do it’ form, we've got JFDI in encouraging people to make small pledges. To make pledges, I mean, very often, they are small, very often they become bigger, and if you help people and like look at one step at a time. So the way that Lisa, in particular has written that up, I think is extraordinary, and is now feeding into further things. And, you know, I think they're very keen to be looking in more depth at health inequalities. And, you know, there's a relationship there. And they're building whereas people say to me sometimes, like, “Was it a good Whose Shoes event?” And well, lots of people came, we had bunting, we had cake. We had a good time, we had some great discussions. But until you see it followed up in that kind of way, to see how you can glean all the learning and follow up, then was it such a great event? Probably not. So I think that they're doing extraordinary work, and obviously under a lot of pressure at the moment. And I think people need to hear that.
Kate Pound 32:17
Completely. And remember the NHS Change Day, some people put really simple things like, "I'm going to smile more". Yes. And actually, that's not such a stupid idea. Because if you smile more, then you build trust. And you know, trust is fundamental, you know, to raise concerns. So by smiling more, you know, it lightens the atmosphere, but actually creates trust. So people are more likely to raise a concern and say, “Hang on a minute, we just need to stop.” So you know, small things can be great things.
Gill Phillips 32:49
And this is the interface isn't in between patient experience, which can be seen as fluffy and patient safety, which is obviously desperately important but the two … and that's why I love the work of … I don't know, if you come across, it's another podcast episode, but Miles Sibley, and he's the founder of Patient Experience Library. Now I talk about how patient stories are important, but Miles makes it evidence based, and shows that actually they've got the same validity as the more medical stuff. And the language around, you know, if you're a doctor, you write a serious incident report you write, you know, something with substance a report of something, whereas patients have ‘patient stories’ and, you know, even the language that sits behind it makes that difference in power, really. So I love bringing these stories together.
Kate Pound 33:42
I feel there's been a real shift in patient involvement, you know, from actually just being volunteers to being paid workers, I think there's a massive shift. I've been working with them in NHS England, patients in the lived experience team.
Gill Phillips 33:59
So their ‘lived experience partners’, because I was involved in that with Cristina Serrao
Kate Pound 34:03
And they're amazing people and their skills are phenomenal. Yes, you know, they've got the most great team. And I mean, historically. So that's why I always remember, if somebody complained, often they would be “Oh, do you want to come to our patient involvement group?” And so you end up with this really toxic environment of all the people that just complained. And it would be really difficult meeting and flipping that to actually being really positive and actually having great outcomes. So I love design thinking. And the fundamental design thinking is to look at the problem through the eyes of the users. So look at the what's happening, understand, get empathy with them and understand why this is difficult. Those high pressure points of anxiety. What is it , and what can we do differently?
Gill Phillips 34:55
just understanding people isn't it
Kate Pound 34:59
Massively. And getting that opportunity to work differently. Because it's always the way you know, sometimes when you get consultancy firms coming in, they're asking the same questions, just a different team. And they're asking the same group of staff, and we get the same answers. So by shifting and moving that focus, we're gonna get more divergent, we're going to be different, we're gonna get creative ideas, because they've got such amazing skills and experiences.
Gill Phillips 35:28
And that's where I love it when you can bring in I mean, say in maternity, you've got Maternity Voices Partnerships, and they're amazing. And obviously, you need people who become, you know, through their own experience and through training and through being involved in groups, more expert, more able to deal with the NHS, etc. But with our Whose Shoes workshops as well as that, we can bring in the mum who had a baby last week We had a four day old baby at our workshop, we can bring in people …
Kate Pound 35:56
Amazing.
Gill Phillips 35:57
Yeah, I'm quite proud of this. Actually. I think it might be Guinness Book of Records. I think the youngest person we've ever had at a Whose Shoes workshop was four days old. And the oldest person, in a different context, in our dementia work was 101. So that is like inclusive, certainly in terms of age. But I think the point that I was trying to make was that not everybody is able to be on a group and to commit that time and that involvement, but to be able to kind of catch people as they come through in whatever way they're able to feedback, and to have as many different and varied ways of people feeding back their story or snippets of their story and then acting upon them.
Kate Pound 36:41
Yeah, absolutely. Just kind of really listening, not just being present, but actually really listening and just catching those bits that I remember, as you say, patients would open up and tell you more when you're like washing them and things like that.. But we have to listen. And it's those little snippets and kind of thinking, well, what does that mean? And be curious, ask more questions.
Gill Phillips 37:07
Yeah. Yeah, I think that be curious. And again, I'm working really closely now with Yvonne Newbold, and she's set up Newbold Hope. And their mantra is, ‘Stay kind, be curious’. And I think that runs through everything, whether it's I Yvonne’s case, from a sort of family carer’s point of view, or from a staff point of view. But if you're actually really interested in people then the rest follows, really, doesn’t it?
Kate Pound 37:34
Yeah, it reminded me of ‘Parallel,’ which is based in London, and they support reducing disabilities or gaining access. So every event is accessible, and it’s just phenomenal work. So they've got a big event in Windsor, on 2nd July, anybody can come. And their mantra is, ‘Start together. Finish whenever’. And they've got they've got stuff for everybody. So if you can only do a sensory walk, then there's a 10 metre sensory walk, or designed that, if you want to do a 15k run, there'll be a big run. And they're using, I can remember, right, there's an orchestra, which is made up of people with disabilities. And it's just phenomenal. I just love the fact that their ambition is: we will do accessible events.
Gill Phillips 38:36
For every one. Yeah, for everyone.
Kate Pound 38:39
So everybody's welcome. And it's that same sort of thing. I love that, you know, start together finish whenever., so you know, there's not the pressure, and everybody gets a medal. You know, it's just, it's lovely.
Gill Phillips 38:51
And everyone feels good, because they've actually been able to take part in something on their own terms, and as equals, isn't it?
Kate Pound 38:58
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that kind of mindset is how we should be approaching patient involvement, you know, think differently, how can we get those people involved? How can we think differently?
Gill Phillips 39:10
And I think people just love it, I mean, our experience, with people saying at the moment, to run a Whose Shoes workshop … were staffing pressures and getting people in the room … And it does take time and effort to plan it, and, you know, do the admin and so on. But what I love is, you know, we call them lemon lightbulbs, and you see people's eyes light up, because they realize that they can do something. However busy they are. Just pick out the ideas that have come through this podcast, and people suddenly feel empowered. And they don't have to ask for permission. And then, you know, they might say, oh, I want to do such and such and then somebody else will say, “Oh, that was my idea!” And then you have a bit of a joke and you say well perhaps do it together and then you have a bit of fun. And then it builds within a team. And I think, however busy people are, that's the kind of thing that hopefully makes them want to get up in the morning and actually carry on when things are difficult,
Kate Pound 39:33
Completely. And I always say that everybody at work should have a project of joy. They have something that really makes their heart sing. And just feel like this is such a lovely project. So I've been working on staff wellbeing programmes at the moment. And it's my project of joy because we have staff from the acutes, we have an active nurse who's leading work on wellbeing, and he is does amazing things. So they had the deconditioning games. And he's been really leading that on his ward, and getting everybody involved and everybody can get up and active and moving.
Gill Phillips 40:43
Fantastic
Kate Pound 40:44
Which is really important for preventing deconditioning. But he's also taken it the other way. So he has created an environment for the staff to be active and encouraged. And so they've had, like nature walks, and like all great things like yoga, and he's just looking at the whole picture. And that goes back to you know, when your staff are well and happy, then actually that improves your care for your patients and is is just lovely.
Gill Phillips 41:14
And I can feel that someone like that will be embedding it into what you're doing, not just having it as a tick box ‘we need a yoga session’, because that's his thing. And he'd be like, yeah, passionate, and then good at running it and then engaging and people will tell their friends and want to come back the next time - it is a positive cycle, isn't it?
Kate Pound 41:34
Absolutely. And so we've got AJ, who is leading the staff wellbeing work. It's at Queen Elizabeth Hospital, King's Lynn. And I have just been blown away by what that organization is doing. You know, it's had its difficult days. But now it's really taking shape in other ways of really kind of like, real commitment and action to support staff wellbeing.
Gill Phillips 41:59
so amazing. And I mean, you're giving me goose bump moments now, Kate, because I'm thinking there are so many potential podcast people to talk to, as a result of, you know, the different kind of leads that you're throwing out and the different bits of good practice. I absolutely love the project of joy, and it makes me think of … so through my breast cancer experience, particularly, I've come across Liz O’Riordan. And she's, she's in that area, she's … I'm not quite sure where but it just made me think of her. And she's a breast cancer surgeon who's got breast cancer herself. And she's making it her absolute mission to be using that knowledge from both sides of the fence if you like to really inform people and putting herself out on social media. But the reason I particularly thought of Liz, apart from the fact she's amazing, is she's got a ‘Jar of Joy’. And she's got a podcast, and at the end of every podcast, she gets somebody to say something recently that's happened to them. And she's done a TED talk about it as well. So joy at work and you know, things that people can just dismiss as, how can we have that, if we're so busy, and you don't understand. If you flip it, and if you don't have it, then what have you got left? And I just love the way that people you know, you people, if you like, are building that and helping people see that, you know, we want people to be able to get up in the morning and come to work and make a difference and feel that they can. And that's almost certainly what brought them into health care in the first place.
Kate Pound 43:35
Exactly
Gill Phillips 43:35
So let's not lose that.
Kate Pound 43:38
And I just think by doing projects of joy and staff wellbeing, if I just impact on one member of staff not leaving the NHS, I'm happy because, you know, we need to stop that. We need to look after our staff, create the atmosphere where they can have things that really seem to their heart projects with joy. And alongside that is staff well being, but you kind of find when you've got projects of joy, you feel happier at work, full stop. And as you say, you get excited, because there's something you know, we've all got our little thing that we're really passionate about.
Kate Pound 44:14
Gill : We have.talked about the fisherman's mission. So you know, obviously inequalities and that side gets me really passionate. And we just need to ask those questions. What is it that you're really passionate about that we can bring into work to make a difference? And you know, use that as a, you can do it as part of an appraisal, but just ask the question, what are you passionate about? And how can we get that to make a difference? Where at work?
Gill Phillips 44:39
Brilliant, okay, so I think we probably need to draw it to an end but I've got a mega lemon light bulb, and I'm gonna do it now. So I'm actually I think you'd be interested in this case I'm developing with Lewisham and Greenwich Hospital, some new Whose Shoes material for student nurses, and it's got just that thinking behind it, like how do we support students through their placements and with, you know, cost of living crisis? And, you know, all the different pressures that people have got that students have always had but perhaps all the more so at the moment. And I'm trying to build in one or two kind of wellbeing scenarios. And I think perhaps to put what do you think the project of joy could go in? Would that be a good one?
Kate Pound 45:19
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, completely.
Gill Phillips 45:22
And the appraisal - What are you passionate about? I think those two just immediately leapt out at me.
Kate Pound 45:28
And so you, my daughter's just qualified as a nurse …
Kate Pound 45:30
.Gill: fantastic
Kate Pound 45:33
And she was elected Chair of the Nursing Society. And one of the things, unfortunately, there was issues because of COVID. But one of the things she had wanted to do was write a directory, because, you know, if you're new to the area, you're not going to know where GP is, you're not going to know all these things. But how do you use a photocopier? All these really like difficult, right? Really easy, but they're really difficult when you're new to the area. And then also kind of having some mentor support, you know, having a final year student supporting some of the new nurses, student nurses, and just creating again … creating that safe environment where they can talk, you know, get support, because, you know, they've all been there. I remember Eliza, so she was on her placement, and everybody's going to panab . And I think I said that, right? You going on panab, and that as she was like, thank you. And it wasn't till she went to her next placement, she discovered that panab had meant going for your cup of tea. And for your break.
Kate Pound 46:34
Gill: How would you know that?
Kate Pound 46:35
She missed this on one placement. So she trained in Wales. And that was Welsh. Well, do you want a cup of tea, coming together for your break, and she missed the breaks on her first ever placement. So you know, it's those experiences that make a difference.
Gill Phillips 46:56
So on a very silly note to finish with, it reminds me of my next door neighbor when I was a child. And she kept asking me if I wanted to go and spend a penny. And we had a corner shop at the end of the street, which was a sweet shop or included some sweets, where I mean, obviously, I'm showing my age, but you could go and spend a penny and buy blackjacks and fruit salads. And she'd send me to the toilet. So what was that about? Kate? language?
Kate Pound 47:24
Language, absolutely. Language. And using language that connects. And is meaningful.
Gill Phillips 47:32
Oh, well, thank you so much, Kate. That's been … I knew that we could just talk and we didn't have to, have you know, an interview or set questions - that the conversation would just flow and I think we could talk for for a very long time, and come up with loads of different anecdotes, but I think that's given people a flavour, hasn't it? I'm thrilled with that.
Kate Pound 47:50
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So you know, and again, if you can make a difference for a handful, then that's, that's worth it.
Gill Phillips 47:58
Perfect. Thank you. I hope you have enjoyed this episode. If so, please subscribe now to hear more of these fascinating conversations on your favourite podcast platform. And please leave a review. I tweet as @WhoseShoes. Thank you for being on this journey with me. And let's hope that together we can make a difference.