37. Daisy Mackey - Don't make assumptions about people!

Today I am speaking with Daisy Mackey, a young woman in the final stages of the prestigious NHS Graduate Management Trainee Scheme

Daisy will make a great leader in the NHS – watch this space!

I found Daisy’s story truly inspirational - I am thrilled to have the chance to share some of it with you today.

Lemon lightbulbs 🍋💡🍋

• The power of connections! – thank you Lisa Rodrigues for connecting us.
• Some people with mental health conditions/ invisible disabilities have a choice as to when/ whether they reveal them – not those in a wheelchair! Unless you are online …
• Don’t make assumptions and judgements about what people with a disability can do 
• How would YOU react if you discover  that someone you thought you knew well through online conversations, is a wheelchair user? 
• What would you learn about yourself, about them? 
• Get to know the person, not just see the condition
• Let’s build on Rob Webster‘s campaign – bring your whole self to work
• Living with a disability gives a lot of transferable skills
• Combat the stigma!
• The NHS is not so accessible for disabled staff as it is for patients 😬
• We all need relatable role models and trailblazers – ‘people like me’
• The power of connections – bolder together
• You can’t possibly  know everyone’s accessibility needs – you have to listen!
• People with learning disabilities have very different accessibility needs - and each person is different
• Experiential learning is key - grab the opportunities
• NHS Leadership programmes are important 
• Allyship - stand up for your colleagues (and for anyone!)  when you see inequalities 
• Being a healthcare professional AND a patient is a very rich perspective 
• Great to see the themes weaving between the various podcast episodes
• Daisy’s story is incredible. Professional ballet dancer to upcoming NHS leader!
• NHS innovative treatments can be truly life changing - eg  dorsal root ganglion stimulation
• It is courageous to share personal stories
• Cascades and ripples! Whose Shoes would add to GMTS experiential learning
• Don’t let people put you in boxes!
• Talk about the difficult topics. 
• Challenge perceptions. 
• End taboo.

Some of the other podcast episode/guests referred to:
Episode 23: Angela Cornwall
Episode 33: Aishah Farooq
Episode 34: Rachel Crook

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Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.

Chapters

• 0:50 How I met Daisy - thank you, Lisa Rodrigues!
• 2:11 The choice (or not!) to reveal living with mental health or physical disability
• 3:45 Assumptions and judgements about what people with a disability can do
• 5:02 The pandemic – moving online - gave Daisy the CHOICE whether to reveal that she was a wheelchair user!
• 5:42 Working with a disability in the NHS. Rob Webster‘s campaign – bring your whole self to work!
• 7:03 Living with a disability gives a lot of transferable skills. Combat the stigma!
• 8:19 Two placements - a mini case study on working in the NHS as a wheelchair user!
• 9:34 Finding role models and trailblazers – ‘people like me’
• 10:19 The power of connections – bolder together!
• 11:26 No-one can know everyone’s accessibility needs – you have to listen!
• 11:45 People with learning disabilities have very different accessibility needs - and each person is different
• 14:23 #FabObs Flo can help Daisy visit and learn more about a maternity unit!
• 14:50 The NHS Graduate Training Scheme – a great opportunity to learn and promote integrated care
• 15:20 “You can’t come in! You are in a wheelchair! Can’t you just stand up?”
• 16:10 Allyship!!
• 17:20 Experiential learning – Gill in scrubs!
• 19:12 The very rich perspective of being a healthcare professional AND a patient
• 19:21 Shoutouts to previous podcast guests – Rachel Crook and Angela Cornwall
• 21:36 Daisy’s incredible story. Professional ballet dancer to upcoming NHS leader!
• 22:44 Life changing treatment for Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
• 22:50 Daisy grabbed a few A-levels, went to Cambridge, and on to the Grad scheme!
• 26:27 Fantastic! The pain treatment meant that Daisy could work – and give something back!
• 28:00 Lucky? Making your own luck!
• 28:48 It is courageous to share personal stories
• 29:29 Proud of my fabulous young podcast guests and friends!! Shoutout to Aishah Farooq, Zainab Garba-Sani and Fran Whitehead
• 31:58 The Darzi Fellowship - another brilliant NHS leadership scheme
• 33:46 Support from alumni and other trainees
• 34:48 Will Amanda Pritchard listen to our podcast?
• 35:40 Global influencers! People who understand through coproduction!
• 36:26 Cascades and ripples! Whose Shoes could add to GMTS experiential learning?
• 37:19 Don’t let people put you in boxes!
• 38:24 Whose Shoes is simple. It ‘just’ brings people together.
• 39:56 Talking about the difficult topics. Ending taboo. Challenging perceptions.

Transcript

Gill Phillips  00:10

My name is Gill Phillips and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes a popular approach to coproduction. I was named as an HSJ 100 Wild Card and want to help give a voice to others, talking about their ideas and experiences. I'll be chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, Whose Shoes Wild Card is for you.

Gill Phillips  00:46

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Wild Card - Whose Shoes. Now a key purpose of this podcast series is to help people make connections to connect with the good guys working across health and social care, particularly those who might not get a huge platform to share who they are, and the important stories that they bring. So it's lovely when people suggest new guests for the podcast, of whom I was not previously aware. Thank you so much, Lisa Rodrigues for introducing me to Daisy Mackey, a young woman in the final stages of the prestigious NHS Graduate Management Trainee Scheme. I really enjoyed my pre chat with Daisy, getting to know her a bit more and learning a bit more about her. And of course what matters to her. I'm sure she will be a fascinating podcast guest, so I won't spoil it. I'll let Daisy tell you as much or as little as she chooses to share about herself, as that is how these things need to be. So welcome, Daisy. I'm thrilled you agreed to chat with me on the podcast today. How would you like to start?

Daisy Mackey  01:55

Thanks so much Gill, I think I'd really like to start by telling everyone a bit more of how Lisa made this connection between us and how this has kind of come about. And it will happen quite quickly, actually, hasn't it? It has, it was all over a couple of weeks. So as part of the NHS graduate management training scheme, as Joe mentioned, I'm just coming to the end of my time, we are really lucky to have experiential learning sessions for every module that we complete of the course. And Lisa came to speak to us in our last virtual experiential learning session about her book and her experience as the chief executive of an NHS Mental Health Trust. And although she's come from a clinical background, where most of us as graduate management trainees haven't, it was so fascinating to hear her insights and her experiences living with a mental health condition. And being a Chief Executive of a big NHS Trust. And we had the amazing opportunity to ask her some questions at the end of her session. And I asked her how she'd felt being able to hide or conceal or choose not to disclose her mental health condition. Because she'd mentioned that she didn't disclose it, she didn't feel comfortable disclosing it at work for a really, really long time. Until a few years before she retired, she mentioned. And I mentioned to her that I'm actually a wheelchair user. So I have a very visible disability, that when I'm at work in person, I don't have the opportunity to be able to conceal it or choose not to disclose it, because it's the first thing that you see about me, you see me you see that I'm several feet shorter than everyone else, because I'm sat in a wheelchair. And people often make judgments about that, and about my capabilities and what I can and can't do from that. And I mentioned to Lisa, that actually, in my previous placement, I was working with southwest London ICS. And we were working almost exclusively remotely because of the pandemic. And so I been able to make that choice to not disclose my disability for the first time in 10 years and the time that I've been disabled because I was just ahead on a screen, people couldn't see my wheelchair. And I found it really shocking and people's reactions meeting me after a year of working with me and suddenly seeing that I was in a wheelchair. And, you know, Lisa was so kind and so intrigued about what I had to say. And she really kindly sent me a copy of her book with a really lovely message in the front. And she connected me with you. And that's kind of how all this came about. But we had our pre chat on Friday a few days ago and we got sort of talking about that identity and how you choose to appear to people at work when you have a disability or a long term condition and how to now aggregate that in the NHS.

Gill Phillips  05:02

So for me, that was fascinating, because I think for the series are trying to collect lemon light bulbs I call them, which is people suddenly realising something. And I love discovering my own lemon light bulbs as well if you like. So that idea of how some of these unknown benefits of the pandemic really, that you had that experience of actually being able to present yourself on screen. And then people meeting you afterwards, or what you choose to disclose, and the fact that Lisa did have that choice, but you normally in real life don't. So I thought that would be a really interesting aspect for the podcast. And then the whole issue of working with a disability within the NHS. So you may know a guy called Rob Webster, who I really, really like he's, he's on Twitter, and he's one of my favourites. So Rob is the Chief Exec of the integrated care system in West Yorkshire. And a very, very real guy, and I met him when he was chief executive things, Yorkshire Mental Health Trust, and he got this campaign about bringing your whole self to work. So including mental health and really encouraging people, I just found it fascinating that it's not just about abilities and disabilities and health care needs, but it's about whole people. That's the sort of things that attract stigma, typically, but also in a more positive way, skills and talents that people have got, you know, the guy that's also the football coach, or the the person who's very talented with whatever it might be, and how much richer life can be if those whole people come to work. And there are opportunities, perhaps, to bring that creative side of themselves to work, as well as just what is actually on the job description, and how much richer that can be for everybody. So I found that really interesting.

Daisy Mackey  06:57

Yeah, I completely agree with that sentiment of bringing your whole self to work. I really like that, I think that's what I realised in my transition from working mostly online to my current placement, where I'm working in a Mental Health Trust in person. And I realised, actually, my disability gives me a lot of skills that are really helpful in a workplace like the NHS, I'm, I'm a really good problem solver, because I have to do it every day, I come across buildings every single day that don't have a ramp that aren't accessible. And I have to find ways around it. And that's a transferable skill. And a lot of people with disabilities or long term conditions or mental health conditions, may not realise it, you know, because it's a part of yourself that often you feel the need to hide at work and feel that stigma that, sadly, is still around. And potentially those people because they've had to hide that part of themselves, and they've not been able to bring their whole self to work. They've potentially not explored the skills that having conditions long term conditions, disabilities, mental health conditions can actually give you and how much of a benefit can be because we think differently to other people in the workplace. And, yeah, it's been it's been a really interesting transition actually going from working in a very strategic role, mostly online, where accessibility issues wasn't particularly prevalent, because I was fortunate enough to be online all the time. And therefore, there was nothing particularly relevant to my particular disability that was in the way. But being in person in a mental health trust in a very old building, things come up every day. And I know when I applied for the training scheme, I thought, it's the NHS, its hospitals, they're going to be wheelchair accessible. We see patients who are disabled every single day, I'm a patient, I go to hospitals, and they're fine. And actually, for staff, there's this underlying expectation that people in wheelchairs, people who are physically disabled, don't work in the NHS and things just aren't set up for us. The amount of bathrooms that I found staff bathrooms that just, I can't even fit my wheelchair in. Well, it's absurd. It's happened in multiple places, you know, the amount of places where there's not a ramp, or there's no space for me to actually enter an office and turn around it. It's been quite an eye opener and quite shocking. And I've not come across another wheelchair user yet in the NHS. I'm sure they're out there. But I've not come across many people like me, I suppose. And I think that's why it was really nice to have the invitation to come and speak with you actually gel because I'm really hoping I can kind of get my voice out there and get it to the people who are feeling the same way as me maybe that it's just them and that they're facing these accessibility barriers and maybe they're not aware of skills that being disabled can give them.

Gill Phillips  10:03

So I think already one of the hosts of the big conversation, I don't know, if you were aware of the big conversation, obviously, it wasn't big enough because it didn't include you. Or you did. The doctor who's a wheelchair user,

Daisy Mackey  10:15

Hannah, Dr. Hannah Barham-Brown,

Gill Phillips  10:17

There we go.

Daisy Mackey  10:17

Yeah.

Gill Phillips  10:19

But I know what you mean, within your day to day life within the NHS. Making these connections - people that you may know of, or can get to know or perhaps even meet in person, it’s special isn’t it,, because we need to know people like us. And compare notes, it might be informally, it might be something bigger. I started off really talking about connections. And I think connections are so interesting and so rich. And I'm sure at some point, we're going to talk about your current placement, which does bring an overlap with my big pal #FabObs Flo. And so Florence Wilcock, and I'm coming down to London tomorrow, as we're recording this, to see her TED Talk as part of NHS TED Talks. So just mentioning that, really, in terms of connections that I've made through my work, and they're so valuable, I think in terms of the work that we're trying to do to be a little bit bolder together, a little bit more provocative in a constructive way, you know, as you're saying, to just highlight some of these issues that people probably just don't normally think about. And when they do, it brings change.

Daisy Mackey  11:26

Yeah, exactly. I think that's the thing I, as a wheelchair user, I don't expect people who aren't wheelchair users to know what my accessibility needs are, you know, how would you, you can't know everything, and people's needs vary so much. And I did have another bit of a kind of light bulb moment, in my last placement relating to this actually, I was really lucky. And I was able to do some work on projects relating to adults with learning disabilities, in southwest London, which was so rewarding and was an area I just had no idea about before, I'd never been exposed to working with people with learning disabilities, I hadn't grown up around people with learning disabilities. And so it was really new to me, and I had an awful lot of learning to do. And I was working on a project on how to make sure that more people with learning disabilities were able to access their annual health checks, which is an NHS programme that's been going on for a while now. And it's just a check once a year for people with learning disabilities, with their GP, just to kind of make sure that nothing's been missed, that they're having a kind of full mot that somebody's involved in their care, and to make sure that anything that needs to be changed can be changed. And there's a really big problem, because a lot of people with learning disabilities really struggle to access their annual health checks. And I'd, you know, assumed that because I'm disabled, and I'm a wheelchair user, I knew everything there was to know about accessibility. And that was wrong, I was very wrong. And actually, I hadn't considered that for some disabled people, particularly for people with learning disabilities, or autism, and other neurodivergent conditions. They can't communicate in the same way that I can, they can't advocate for themselves in the same way that I can in the way that you know, as I mentioned earlier, if there's a step and there's no ramp, I can say you need to get a ramp, I need to be able to access this building. It's my right vto be able to access this building, but somebody with a learning disability can’t potentially. And it's obviously a really huge spectrum. And so everyone's needs in that group is so so different. And it was a really, really big learning curve for me to understand that everyone's needs with disabilities and long term conditions are so different, and there is no one answer to everyone. There's no one box fits everyone. And yeah, it was a really big eye opener. And I did a lot of learning about that. And I've since as you mentioned, I've moved on to my final placement, which I'm with southwest London and St. George's Mental Health Trust, and I'm working with the perinatal mental health team. So this is the area which Flo works in itsel, in South-West is London. So there's there's quite a interesting crossover, actually an interesting connection.

Gill Phillips  14:23

And I'm glad you've closed that circle because I realised that it was a bit random how I'd introduced Flo at that point, but it's because you're working in the same area. And I know from the pre chat, I haven't had a chance to talk to Flo yet. Not least because she's so busy with preparing her TED Talk. But I think you'd like to spend some time perhaps in a maternity unit?

Daisy Mackey  14:43

I really would. Yeah.

Gill Phillips  14:44

Wouldn't that be amazing?

Daisy Mackey  14:46

Yeah. Fingers crossed.

Gill Phillips  14:47

So perhaps Flo can help organise that. I’m sure she can.

Daisy Mackey  14:50

I just think I think one of the real benefits of the training scheme that I'm on is that we have the freedom and the opportunities to be able to do things like that. Which is incredible and really lucky to be able to experience that. So I'd really like to spend some time in a maternity unit and see the other places that our patients go for their care and how it all joins up, and how it all becomes kind of integrated around the patient, which obviously, is a huge focus of yours. Yeah, so I've had incredible opportunities like that my whole time on the scheme. Not all fantastic. Unfortunately, I think I told you in our pre chat, during my induction period, I was lucky enough to be able to scrub in on a surger, a vascular surgery, which was, you know, this was my first two weeks in the NHS. And I never thought I'd get an opportunity like that as a trainee manager. And it was incredible. But I turned up on the day at the place that they'd said, and we got there. And the person at the desk said that they weren't going to let me in because I was in a wheelchair.

Gill Phillips  15:51

Wow.

Daisy Mackey  15:52

And they said that nobody had told them that I was in a wheelchair that, couldn't I just stand up, things like that, which was really hurtful. And at the time it really

Gill Phillips  16:03

And inappropriate!. Couldn't you just stand up is not right,

Daisy Mackey  16:08

Unfortunately. Yeah. But I was really lucky that, you know, I found as a lot of really great allyship and the NHS, and the colleague that I was with, another trainee who started the same time as me. So we'd known each other for approximately a week. He said, “Well, if you're not allowed in, then I'm not going in”. And

Gill Phillips  16:27

Brilliant.

Daisy Mackey  16:27

And that really made the whole situation feel so much better. I think without that display of solidarity, and, you know, colleague ship, I really would have struggled to carry on and be positive. So yeah, I think things like that are so important for people with disabilities and long-term conditions work in the NHS, because it is difficult, and it's not that accessible, but knowing that your colleagues support you is everything.

Gill Phillips  16:58

And to get those opportunities, you know, I think managers in the NHS, senior managers in the NHS, they need every opportunity to experience as much as they can what's happening at grassroots level. And for you to get those opportunities but then to be denied by the system, rather than because somebody hasn't managed to make those links and make that happen for you. And haven't even told you I don't think about you will find on the internet, slightly famous photo of me in scrubs going around Kingston theatres with Flo, because we were preparing to do a Whose Shoes project around theatres together. And I was obviously trying to crowdsource real material, real voices, so to chat and to people, to chat to them on the phone, but also to actually kind of walk the walk and go around. And it was interesting. When I spotted I remember, there was a photo board with the team. And I asked some quite pertinent questions, I think about who the team is. And that got them thinking about who was in the photo and who wasn't in the photo. So I think fresh eyes sometimes as well. So you're not just taking by having these opportunities, you're really feeding back and some key learning as a new person coming in. And particularly, you coming in, in your wheelchair, you'd see things differently again, yeah, very differently.

Daisy Mackey  18:20

Yeah, I mean, even, you know, metaphorically about physically, I'm on a different height. very differently. And, yeah, it's really interesting, what you're saying about the importance of senior managers in the NHS, being able to experience things at grassroots level. And then, of course, you know, a lot of fantastic senior managers in the NHS come from clinical backgrounds, and so they understand already, but I think for somebody in my position, who is on a training scheme, it's potentially someone's first proper job straight fresh out of university. You know, I don't I don't have a clinical background at all, I studied English. And that's another story how I came to want to work in the NHS, but it was really it is really important to me to be able to understand how the system functions and how, how the experience is for our patients. You know, I've had my own experiences as a patient. I'd say I'm certainly a professional and a patient.

Gill Phillips  19:21

I think that experience as a patient, and as a professional is incredibly rich. And I'm starting to think of, I suppose one of the things I try and do now as the podcast series grows a bit is weave some magic threads through it and perhaps make some connections. So a very recent podcast episode was with Rachel Crook, a paediatric nurse, who's also and first and foremost a mum of two young girls who've got some health needs. And we got into this conversation about being on both sides of a fence and why there needs to be a fence. So that was interesting and another thread that I didn't want to lose just from the conversation we've had so far - a previous podcast guest, Angela Cornwall, who's got two children that she's supported obviously, as a mum, as a family carer, one of whom her daughter's got a very rare condition. And then her son, he's autistic. And, again, the innovation, I think this is something we could perhaps come on to a bit that people who see things differently can bring. And she talked about two things that fascinated me. One was a patient passport. So with really key information upfront about that very rare condition, because no clinician in the world could be expected to know all about everything, and how important that was, but sometimes not being heard, and, and so on. But the other one that was directly relevant to what you were talking about was her Speedy Boarding initiative. And in terms of adjustments that can be made, perhaps for someone who's autistic, to be able to have an appointment that doesn't give them a sensory overload, perhaps to have the first appointment in the day, not to have to go into a busy waiting room and ultimately making the difference. I mean, you were talking about annual health checks for people with learning disabilities, whether they actually can attend. And then from the system's side of things if for some reason that didn't work out, they couldn't get to that appointment, it becomes a ‘Did not attend’, as opposed to all these stories that sit behind why, so I suppose with Whose Shoes we are trying to learn about why, and then the system to respond to that. So come on, Daisy, tell us about how you came to be in the NHS. Why are you on this graduate scheme?

Daisy Mackey  21:41

Yeah. So I mean, coming from a degree in English, it does seem a little bit random, doesn't it? So my story, my background, I … would you believe it despite the wheelchair now, I began my career as a professional ballet dancer , vocational ballet dancer. I well, …

Gill Phillips  22:01

I didn't know that

Daisy Mackey  22:02

Really?

Gill Phillips  22:03

No, that didn't come up in our pre-chat

Daisy Mackey  22:06

Yeah, so I trained very seriously, I went to vocational boarding school at the age of 11. I trained full time until I was 18. And unfortunately, I sustained an injury. And I had to have surgery on that injury. And one of those surgeries, gave me some nerve damage and triggered a rare condition called Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. And I was unable to continue with my career after that. So I was 18 years old. I didn't have any GCSEs, no A levels. Because I'd spent my entire … I put all my eggs in the ballet basket.

Gill Phillips  22:42

Oh, my goodness.

Daisy Mackey  22:44

And I had to, you know, and I had to decide where I was going to go from there. And I was really lucky. And I received some fantastic pain treatment on the NHS. I was seen by Chelsea and Westminster hospitals pain clinic, who changed my life. Because the pain that I had from this condition was I'm unable to describe how bad it was. I was unable to work, I was unable to study. It's yeah, I mean, if you Google Complex Regional Pain Syndrome, you see some pictures of what your limbs look like when you have this condition. And it's not pretty. And it had a huge, huge effect on my life and my quality of life. And because I had lost my career and my vocation, and I was unable to kind of move forward, and I was in this completely uncontrollable pain. At the age of 18. I actually also developed an eating disorder, I developed anorexia. And I was extremely lucky that I was seen at a specialist Mental Health Trust within two weeks, which was unheard of even at the time, I was extremely lucky. The treatment I received really did make all the difference. And I'm very well now from that perspective. So I ended up I was able to kind of get through some A levels. And I decided to think about applying to university and I was actually really lucky and I got a place at Cambridge as a mature student. So I went to study English at Cambridge. And during that time, I was offered a very unusual treatment for my pain condition on the NHS called dorsal root ganglion stimulation. And I, I thought this sounds very strange. I'm not sure about this, but I tried everything else. At that point I was on lots of medications, including strong opioids. I wasn't really able to concentrate and wasn't functioning very well and my quality of life was still very, very poor. And so I agreed to have this procedure and it's sort of essentially if I describe it, it's the same components as a pacemaker. It's a battery and it's an electrical lead, but they put it inside your spinal cord. And when they switch on it, it gives this kind of electrical current and it tingles. And it sort of it's like a Tens machine. I don't know if you've heard of Tens machines?

Gill Phillips  25:03

Yes, I have

Daisy Mackey  25:04

I know they're really common in maternity 

Daisy Mackey  25:07

It’s like a Tens machine on steroids. It's inside the spine. It's very clever technology. And with this procedure, when they implant it, they wake you up half way through the surgery, and they switch it on to test if it's in the right place. And if it's working, and they woke me up, and they switched it on. And the pain that I'd had for seven years at this point, instantly went from a 7 out of 10 to a 1 out of 10. Instantly, like a light bulb.

Gill Phillips  25:33

My goodness,

Daisy Mackey  25:34

Yeah. And I just, I just started crying because I hadn't ever dreamed that it would work and work as well as it did. And it instantly changed my life. And I've had the device for almost five years now, actually, which is amazing. It's come up so quickly. And yeah, kind of after my amazing experiences with mental health treatment, before and the absolutely outstanding treatment of this dorsal root ganglion stimulator that I received at Chelsea and, Westminster, I decided that I really wanted to be able to use the opportunity that it had given me because I knew I was capable of working, I was able to work and have a job and do something like that. And I decided I really wanted to use it to give back and help people in positions like me. And I thought, well, how can I do that with an English degree. And I found out about the training scheme. And so I applied just before COVID hit, and I was really, really lucky to get a place it's, it's really competitive. And I was placed in an amazing area with fantastic placements that have given me so much learning. And I've absolutely loved my time on the scheme. And I do feel like I'm making a difference. And it's, it's really rewarding to be able to use the opportunity that I was given with this treatment. Because it's it was a long, it was over a year, the process to get this treatment, it was done with some …, I think it might have been on specialist commissioning. So there was a whole process on that side, I think that they had to go through and they don't implant them very often. So I was really, really lucky. And I am so grateful for every day, and I'm so grateful that I'm able to use it to help other people access treatment on the NHS, you know, it's so nice. Now in this placement, I'm seeing the impact, which I didn't have so much in commissioning, because you're further removed. But in a service, in the perinatal service, I, I get to know how the people we’re treating how they're doing, how they’re bonding with their babies, you know, we've had some patients who work as peer support workers for us now, they want to use their experience with our team to help other women like them. And I just think that's amazing. And I feel very lucky to be able to see that happening.

Gill Phillips  28:00

WOW! Honestly, Daisy, I think in that story alone, you've made it worth me doing the podcast series. And that sounds a bit cheesy. But you know, I'm here to share stories. And that is such an amazing story in the way that you've turned something so impossibly difficult, into something so positive, and you use the word, you've used it several times “lucky”. But it's so well deserved. And I'm sure the people who recruit for the graduate scheme, you're the kind of people that they're looking for. And in terms of like compassion and empathy and management, you know, so NHS managers sometimes get criticised and then removed, and to have people that bring all of that, and I can't imagine them in in terms of like the light bulb moments or when you were talking about I think one thing that really got to me was the idea of waking up during an operation to see how your pain’s going to be … that must have been so scary waiting, because I do know a bit about waiting for results. I've had my own cancer experience, and I know something about the waiting. And the idea that you could wake up and your life could be transformed. And I can see that what I'm saying is affecting you and you're affecting me as well. And I think that emotion needs to come through a little bit on the podcast series because you know, that's painful, isn't it talking and discovering and hearing each other's stories and I think your courage in sharing that story today. Honestly, I'm going to be so fascinated to watch your progress in the future. I've loved talking to these young guests. I've had Aishah as well. I don't know if you saw, Aishah Farooq. I've spoken to recently so I should say a young NHS leader who's doing some incredible work so you might be interested in listening to her story. And also, I know we've mentioned in the pre chat my friendship with Zainab Garba-Sani. So she's my big NHS graduate management scheme. alumni pal and seeing her now she's got an incredible opportunity coming up in … we’ll now really in September, going off to join a really prestigious scheme in America. I'm just so proud of her - the connections and for me to be able to connect you to some of these people. And we've also connected with Fran Whitehead. So she's a graduate management trainee,

Daisy Mackey  30:24

She’s a policy and strategy specialist.

Gill Phillips  30:26

Oh, you've managed to connect ..

Daisy Mackey  30:27

Yeah, it was very strange. After we chatted on Friday, the very next meeting I was in, she was there. And we'd never met before. But suddenly, this connection, which just happened, it was very strange. It was such a coincidence.

Gill Phillips  30:40

And that happens so much in life, doesn't it? It's when you've never heard of a particular word. And then now you hear about it. So Fran Whitehead got me involved in the leadership programme. And I came along and gave a talk to the graduate trainees about Whose Shoes and about coproduction with Zainab, which was amazing. And these connections and opportunities are obviously helping me as well, to help Whose Shoes get a bit, you know, better known and reaching different people. It's, it's exciting.

Daisy Mackey  31:11

Yeah, really exciting. And yeah, it's, it's really great that you're able to connect with people at all different stages of their leadership journey. I think it's so important to hear from the expertise and the experience of really well established senior leaders in the NHS, but having the opportunity to talk to people right at the beginning, where the reason, you know, like me, the reason that I chose to work in the NHS is still so fresh. And so with me with everything I do, I think it just gives a different perspective and potentially, like an inkling into the direction that we might be heading in, in the future. By the time you know, my cohort of trainees, and the ones after me are those established leaders in the NHS.

Gill Phillips  31:58

And I love the fact that it actually brings us full circle in a way. So I haven't told you how I know Lisa Rodriguez, and that's through the Darzi fellowship programme. So there's a new cohort, it's smaller than than your scheme, there's about 25. Typically, I think it used to be more than that, in fact, it used to be two cohorts. But for the last, I think it's about 10 years or so I've got involved using Whose Shoes with these amazing people, it's my favourite piece of work, honestly. So Professor, Becky Malby, runs the programme. It's a one year programme with a mix of a one year placement and academic learning. And as part of a really effective I love it 3 day module that they do around coproduction, we use Whose Shoes on the afternoon of day one. And then on day 2, and day 3, the fellows go and visit really good examples of coproduction in action. And I've had the pleasure and the privilege of going on a couple of trips with them. So I've been up to the Alvanley family GP centre up in Stockport, and learned firsthand with them about social prescribing from this innovative practice. I've been out to Bromley by Bow in London with him. And honestly, I felt like somebody going along with an Apprentice team. So there's quite a big age gap between me and them. And being part of this team and being a bit of an observer myself in terms of watching to see who the leaders are, and whether we, you know, we were on the London Underground, this journey or that journey, and just seeing how the different characters sort of play off against each other. So in terms of my Whose Shoes perspective, you know, I've gone off at a bit of a tangent, but I find that kind of thing absolutely fascinating, how these leaders all come together.

Daisy Mackey  33:46

And I think what I really love about a lot of the programmes that the NHS Leadership Academy run, you know, obviously they run GMTS, which is the scheme I'm on , and the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson programme. And I think the thing that I find from alumni of any programme that the leadership academy runs is how much the graduates from those programmes give back. My action learning set facilitator who stays with me for the full two years of the scheme, he is a Darzi fellowship graduate. And he now gives back by facilitating the sessions for trainees

Gill Phillips  34:20

Fantastic.

Daisy Mackey  34:20

And yeah, and the amount of ex trainees I've come across in different systems in the NHS who always, always always want to help out a current trainee is amazing. And it makes me really look forward to being an ex trainee who can help our current trainees and support the next generation of leaders in the NHS. And I think that is something that runs really strongly through any graduate of an NHS Leadership Academy cohort.

Gill Phillips  34:48

And I'm sure you told me that both Simon Stevens and Amanda Pritchard are alumni of your scheme. So wouldn't this be amazing because the original motivation for me setting up the podcast which I'm absolutely loving, so I'd be doing it anyway, but being named as an HSJ 100. Wild Card. And the challenge  was HSJ to be selecting people who the formal leaders of the NHS, so the new at the time chief executive, Amanda , should be listening to. And I said, “Well, hey, it's not me that she should be listening to. It's all these amazing people that I'm pulling together”. So if you've got any influence, at any point, helping Amanda Pritchard become aware of the series. And perhaps she'll be listening to this one day Daisy, who knows? Let's be ambitious, 

Daisy:
Of course.

 But for me, it's the networking. So I've mentioned that I've worked all of these years with the Darzi fellows that the different cohorts. And I love staying in touch with them. And I love seeing what they go on to do. And many of them the majority, I'm sure in this country, but also making an influence globally, you know, one or two that I keep up closely in Australia and so on. It's just so interesting. And to feel that those people who are learning about real coproduction working with patients working in a let's not call them patients with people, the Darzi fellows call them citizens, to actually work with them to see how individual health care needs can be improved, and the system can be improved. It's wonderful. Yeah,

Daisy Mackey  36:26

it's it's amazing to see the cascade effect. And the reach actually, that something like this has and that you have, and the impact that you have on your connections, which in turn has an impact on anyone who's listening to the podcast, or who's participated in Whose Shoes or you've met through coproduction workshops, like with the Darzi fellowship, and I am really hoping you'll do some more work with graduate management trainees, because I think that you could fit in perfectly with our experiential learning sessions. And it would bring a really interesting perspective to what we do as people who don't have that clinical experience and potentially are on our first experiences working in the NHS. So I think I think it'd be fantastic.

Gill Phillips  37:09

Oh, well, thank you. And let's hope we can, we can make that happen. Because I just love I love working with young people. I love working with people at an earlier stage in their career. So probably like Lisa, and I'm the same age as Lisa are pretty much. And I think both of us would be really fired up by just feeding back some of that experience in a way. Obviously, Lisa's got the the clinical background. I'm like, you know, the thing I hadn't told you was my degree was in French and Latin really? Yeah. And people want to put you in boxes. It's hilarious. So I worked for a long time, like forever, really in social care. So that was my sort of professional background if you like, but I wasn't a social worker. But in print, I'm a social worker, people have written about me, and they make a leap. And they say Gill’s a social worker. So in print, I have been in different publications, a social worker, a doctor, and midwife, and even an obstetrician. Yeah. Which is absolutely hilarious. And as I hope, you know, I don't claim to be anything other than what I'm doing. But all I'm doing is it's just this word, isn't it, I've just used it. All I'm doing is but Whose Shoes is so simple. It's about crowdsourcing real perspectives, real scenarios, quite provocative. Some of them quite quirky, to help people relax and talk to each other, have a bit of fun, be human. But through that, it's just a tool really, to bring people together to talk about the things that matter. And to come together as human beings, we've gone very much with flow, no hierarchy, just people come to a Whose Shoes event, you don't wear your NHS uniform, you don't have a lanyard, you don't say, “Oh, I'm the Chief Executive, remind me,  little person, who you are” which I'm sure people don't mean to say that, but that's how it can be received by people. Whereas if you say well, actually, you know, senior role in the hospital, but I've got my, my mum with dementia or my own child with a learning disability. It cuts through that hierarchy of power. And people come up with extraordinary solutions together.

Daisy Mackey  39:25

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's it's interesting, isn't it? It's coming back to bringing the whole you to work. Bringing the you that's a carer, bringing the you who's a mum or a dad or a brother or sister, bringing the you who's a wheelchair user in my case, and seeing actually how enriching that can be to the work that you're doing and what a difference bringing those perspectives can make to the people that you are trying to make a difference for.

Gill Phillips  39:55

And I've just had, to be honest, a bit of a kind of lemon light bulb myself in terms of probably if I had to pick out, the biggest thing that's happened in my kind of professional working time, if you like, it would be that all of those things that you've just mentioned, would have been taboo, all of them, you know, you came to work, not just as a doctor or a nurse, but all of us, really. And you left yourself at the door, though, I was working through having three young children. And it's so nice now that the whole human being is, .. it’s not sorted yet. It's not perfect, but people are seeking to know the whole person and to employ you as a person, rather than just from a formal job description. I think it's very, very healthy. Yeah. And people like you will make a big difference in terms of perception and rocking it and telling them where they can put their assumptions.

Daisy Mackey  40:52

I hope so, I really do. I do hope so. It's challenging. But every day I like to think I'm challenging the perception of what people think I can and can't do, just because my legs don't work very well.

Gill Phillips  41:04

And if I can help you a tiny bit with that, then I'd say my job will be done. Thank you. So it's been so lovely talking to you, Daisy, I love talking to young people. You know you're at the start of your career and I can see you going so far. So good luck with everything that you do. And please stay in touch..

Daisy Mackey  41:24

Thank you so much.

Gill Phillips  41:26

I hope you have enjoyed this episode. If so, please subscribe now to hear more of these fascinating conversations on your favourite podcast platform. And please leave a review. I tweet as @WhoseShoes, thank you for being on this journey with me. And let's hope that together we can make a difference.