53. Angela Catley - When I Get Old

I first met Angela Catley  in the very early days of Whose Shoes?, so back in about 2009, when she did a very lively and slightly bonkers presentation at a conference. 

I remember how Angela used her slides as just a very rough guide, while telling wonderful stories, and occasionally flicking on from one slide to the next as she went. I found it refreshing!

It was full of energy, and she spoke common sense which really resonated with me. She  despaired about bureaucracy and talked about HR type functions as the ‘Stuff department’ - often stuff getting in the way of organisations, and particularly good small providers, trying to get on and run a quality service.

You can feel the synergy to my #WhoseShoes work!

Angela was working for Community Catalysts, enabling everyday people to develop brilliant, quirky, creative, life-enhancing solutions to their own challenges. I loved it!

Fast forward … in this episode, we talk about the ‘When I Get Old’ campaign.

We link up with other social movements that celebrate and support people’s strengths rather than their weaknesses, and focus on what matters to people.

How we can all get the best out of systems to live – and carry on living – our best lives?
Even when we get old.

Many of us have banged  the drum for our parents, trying to get the best for them. But we can only pick from available choices, and often we know that this is NOT what they wanted.

Have YOU got a clear plan as to what you would like to happen … or are you going ‘La, la, la, la …. Ooooh heck!
 
 Lemon lightbulbs 🍋💡🍋

• Be curious and furious - Furiosity! (shoutout to Mark Adam Smith!) 
• There are SO many splendid, creative people - connect with them!
• Discover your shared passions - have conversations!
• Ageing - plan ahead - we can switch from ‘Us’ to ‘Them’ in seconds
• Care Land. Stuff. … keep it real for real people
• Collaborate - join up with like-minded movements. #StrongerTogether
• Head in the sand leads to … La, La,La, La,La ….. oooooh heck!
• Life is a lottery. We can’t all be David Attenborough in the ageing stakes
• Will the options you would choose even exist?
• Crisis … is never a good time to make decisions 
• Creativity can help unlock imaginative solutions
• The power of the self-funding pound. Own your paying power!
• Get involved in the #WhenIGetOld campaign!
• Personal choice is specific - not just wine or beer
• Think differently - chat to your friends to see what emerges
• Some great solutions are potentially right there - in your community!
• Don’t let services - eg befriending services - get in the way of friendship
• Relationships matter! Cultivate them and defend them … with furiosity!

Some links you will enjoy:

Join the #WhenIGetOld campaign !

Angela's 'Ta ra' blog when she left Community Catalysts

A pioneer of #WhenIGetOld type thinking : the late, great D

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Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and background
• 8:00 Curious and furious … Furiosity!
• 10:00 The nuance of human beings and choice
• 11:20 What do we mean by lemon lightbulbs?
• 13:55 Limited care and support options
• 14:39 The wisdom, skills and gifts of older people
• 15:33 Ageing without children can be terrifying
• 17:27 The #WhenIGetOld campaign is born
• 18:32 We can’t all be David Attenborough
• 18:45 Gill’s Mum -the broken care system … head in the sand
• 21:40 Us and them. La, La, La, La …. Oooh heck!!!
• 25:05 The power of the self-funding pound
• 26:45 Crisis is not the time to make decisions
• 27:15 Diversity of choice
• 28:00 Shoutouts to some pioneers
• 30:10 Personal choice is specific - not just wine or beer
• 35:20 Finding best practice - home and abroad
• 37:20 Creating a movement for change - natural allies
• 40:42 Using podcasts as a medium for sharing stories
• 41:31 Professor Becky Malby - ‘Universal Healthcare - National Inquiry’ report
• 42:28 #WhenIGetOld manifesto - intergenerational case studies
• 44:43 Community based solutions - so much scope!
• 45:39 The Leicestershire Innovation Challenge
• 48:21 The impact of neglecting relationships - Angela’s Gran and her Scrabble friend
• 52:10 Launching the #WellIGetOld campaign

Transcript

Gill Phillips  0:11  
My name is Gill Phillips and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes a popular approach to coproduction. I was named as an HSJ 100 Wild Card, and wanted to help give a voice to others, talking about their experiences and ideas. I love chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, Wild Card Whose Shoes is for you.

Gill Phillips  0:46  
So hello, and welcome back to another edition of the Wild Card Whose Shoes podcast. I first met today's podcast guest in the very early days of Whose Shoes, so back in about 2009 when she did a very lively and slightly bonkers presentation at a conference. I remember how she used her slides as just a very rough guide, while telling wonderful stories and occasionally flicking on from one slide to the next as she went. I found it refreshing. He was full of energy. And she spoke common sense which really resonated with me. She despaired about bureaucracy, and talked about HR type functions as the Stuff Department, often stuff getting in the way of organisations, and particularly good small providers trying to get on and run a quality service.

Gill Phillips  1:38  
I've stayed in touch with Angela Catley over the years. There, I've told you now who she is, celebrating each other's values and achievements, and occasionally doing some work together. Angela was working for Community Catalysts, enabling everyday people to develop brilliant, quirky, creative, life enhancing solutions to their own challenges. I loved it. We've been meaning to catch up for ages. But it was When Angela left Community Catalysts at Christmas that we reconnected. She had written a wonderful goodbye blogging thing. That's her lovely description. I'll include a link to the blog in the show notes. And it was the spark for us to catch up with each other properly We had a big chat, and we agreed to record this podcast together. I'm excited about it, I think you will find it different. And in a very good way.

Gill Phillips  2:35  
When I think of Angela, I think in terms of good stuff in the community, and truly personalised care and support. In the same way as Fab NHS stuff for the NHS, you might like to check out episode 12 that I recorded with Dr. Terri Porrett. To find out more about Fab NHS stuff. And all such work is part of one movement, really the movement that celebrates and supports people, their strengths rather than their weaknesses, and focuses on what matters to people, and how we can all get the best out of systems to live and carry on living our best lives even when we get old. So that's where this episode fits in.

Gill Phillips  3:25  
Angela and I could talk all day. So out of all the amazing things that she's involved in, we decided to focus on ageing. Yes, that's you. And me. And everybody, not Us and Them. And we'll talk about that. Many of us have banged the drum for our parents and tried or if they're still alive, we're still trying to get the best for them. But we can only pick from available choices. And often we know that what is available is not what they wanted. But are we also thinking about ourselves and our own choices when the time comes? Will the options we would choose be there when we need them? Perhaps you would like to join the When I Get Old campaign?  So welcome and thank you for joining me, Angela Catley. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about yourself and lead us into this important topic.

Angela Catley  4:22  
Thanks ever so much Gill. That was a really nice introduction and it made me laugh. So that that's really nice. I think I definitely tend to have turns of phrase that take the complicated and the jargony and turn them into at best human at worst, slightly daft but  hopefully still identifiable and hopefully speaking about things in ways that resonate with people 

Gill Phillips  4:51  
 and obviously memorable.

Angela Catley  4:53  
Well maybe but I think sometimes we we had it no we moved so far away from People and the language that they use, but in our sector, that that we leave people behind Maybe so, yeah, maybe it's about getting it back to human sometimes.

Gill Phillips  5:09  
I think so.

Angela Catley  5:11  
So my background, I started ...ancient ancient history, I started, I started life as a nurse for people with a learning disability. And I think I did my training in a 500. bed, what they call the longstay hospital in those days, awful place. Really, I mean, I think some some good people trying really hard to do right by people, some not so good people not trying anywhere near as hard. And a seriously institutionalised view of how people could and should be supported. Yep. And I think, I don't know, I think I learned a lot from that. I think I learned where the rocky road downwards leads to. Yeah, if that makes sense. I think I learned that even people with strong values that believe in doing things properly and right, and I hope fully count myself as one of them people now, of course, yeah, maybe 18, 19 20 years of age. You don't see that anywhere near as clearly, you know, that the system that the institution can, can consume you. Yeah, that you become part of the problem, not part of the solution. I think I learned a huge amount. And and in a way I'm, I'm extremely glad, in a weird way that I had that type of experience. Because I think it's been a really strong foundation for everything I've gone on to do afterwards.

Gill Phillips  6:50  
That's really interesting. Yeah. Sometimes you don't know about people where you know where they've arrived, but you don't know where they started off. So thanks for telling us that

Angela Catley  7:00  
Where they came from, yeah. So I never actually worked for the NHS I, I left. Well, I was gonna say right at the end of my training, but actually I left before I got my results, and moved into the I was going to say, a third sector, but my first job was actually in the private sector, working for a small group of nursing homes down in the south of England for children and young people with a learning disability. And then most of my career has my early career was in working within the third sector working for, for charity as a care provider organizations in various roles. I was a registered manager of a care home for a bit. I was a head of training and development for a third sector organisation for a bit. I managed a shared lives scheme and became really passionate about shared lives. And that 25 years ago is where I met my co conspirator in the initiative that we're just about to talk about Gill. With Sian Lockwood.

AngelaCatley  8:03  
Yeah, brilliant.

Angela Catley  8:05  
And then in probably the last 20 years, I've been in now in roles that are trying to change things, working for different organizations, all really with a focus on social care, although not social care, as we know it. You know, that's when I say social care. I don't mean, regulated CQC. You know, I think I mean, care and support that people need to live their lives. So I've worked in various organizations and initiatives that had a focus on that, and had a focus on choice, diverse options, putting people strengths, and assets and skills at the heart, finding different ways of doing things, many of which started with the person themselves and the community in which they live.

Angela Catley  8:58  
Yeah, brilliant. I love it.

Angela Catley  9:00  
So I've probably had 15 or 20 years, doing lots of stuff that plays in that space,

Gill Phillips  9:06  
And makes a difference. And I've seen it some of the examples are extraordinary and different and quirky. And it's the quirky connection that I think we've really got.

Angela Catley  9:14  
Thank you. 

Gill Phillips  9:15  
Just finding things that are out of the box and designed by people rather than systems. And, you know, for us. Stuff. 

Angela Catley  9:23  
And I've  had a hand in a model called Home Share. And a hand in a model, Shared Lives. Lots of work with Community Catalysts on the development of community, micro enterprises, lots and lots of time spent with splendid folks in local communities, creating different ways to provide support for other people in their communities 

Gill Phillips  9:45  
And having fun doing it.

Angela Catley  9:47  
Lots of fun, lots of support, lots of challenges, lots of challenges, because it's all bucking the trend. You know, it's, it's all different to what everybody thinks is the normal. Yeah, you know, but I think I have seen first and that there are hundreds and hundreds 1000s of creative, splendid people able to I don't know, come up with ideas for different and then to actually practically make that happen.  I know your Gill are a big Twitter fan. I'm refusing to call it by its other name . So the name and I still call it a Marathon. I refuse to call it a Snickers. I was on Twitter last week, and I saw a conference run in Northumberland. And somebody at that conference who I should be able to quote properly. So I apologize that I can't was talking about being furious and curious. Oh, I like that. And then they were talking about ... Furiosity.

Gill Phillips  10:50  
I love it.

Angela Catley  10:51  
So I was so I'm seriously inspired but and plagiarizing mercilessly, somebody else's concept of furious and curious because I think that that forms a really strong foundation for  what we're going to talk about.

Gill Phillips  11:05  
Yeah, it does. I love that. You knew I would.

Angela Catley  11:07  
Yeah, me too.
Furiosity. I'll go find out the name of the guy who actually said it. Yeah, yeah, I did tell them I was going to pinch it. But I need to be able to quote properly, like a grown up don't I Gill?

Gill Phillips  11:20  
We'll get there. We'll get there. So obviously, as you're talking, I'm hearing like links to my work. And in I'm hearing one thing that I think really sort of picked up from what you said is just how many I think you call them creative, splendid people, there, are. And I think where the particular link is to my work is that during our workshops, we really sow the seed right the way through that this is about us. And it's about what we can do what we individually can do. And sometimes, and we call them lemon light bulb moments sometimes and you see people and their eyes light up because they suddenly realize that it's not about what they can do whoever they are, but it's about what I can do what you can do, and we get people making pledges, and then they connect with each other and they have some fun. And it's even when things are so difficult when as you know, I work mainly with the NHS now and obviously they these teams and under so much pressure. But once you can connect with people as as human beings, they can rediscover what it is they're passionate about. And realize that actually, regardless of stuff, I can do this little thing, or I can do this bigger thing or I can connect with somebody else and make it bigger. So curiosity. Furiosity, I've learned that one

Furiosity!   So curiosity about so are we going to move on to now tell us about the campaign at the moment? And I guess that that's a big source of curiosity.

Angela Catley  12:57  
If I think I mentioned Sian earlier, Sian and I have worked together in three different organizations over 2024 years, as I've made this this year. Oh, well. So we work really, really well together. And she has been a kind of a constant support and inspiration for me over many, many years. And I think we started just spark off each other quite a lot. Shawn was the chief executive at Community Catalysts and left, maybe three years ago now, which seems unbelievable. And when I left my main role at Community Catalyst at Christmas, we started having conversations about things that were energizing us infuriating us, making us want to act, you know, I think Cormac Russell and the  asset based community development folks would talk about what do you care enough about to act upon? And Sian and I started having conversations. And we realized quite early on that we're both, right at this moment in time, particularly curious and furious about the care and support options available to older people, to the people that we love and care about now, and to our future selves.. And I think I think we realised I thought we were coming from slightly different angles initially. So it took us a little while to get to the position where we are now. I think Sian's particularly passionate. We're both passionate about both these things, but she's particularly passionate about, about older people,  all of the the wisdom and the skill and the knowledge and the gifts of older people being overlooked and discarded. The nearer they come to Care Land. And , and once they get into Care Land, and that those things in many, many cases, not all, but in many, many cases, those things are just not seen and valued at all. Yeah, so Sian's really passionate about people being able to contribute, to have purpose, to be their whole, valued selves to the end of life, right. So she, she feels really, really strongly that that's something that's quite missing from our system. And I probably coming from a largely personal point of view - family too, but mainly personal. I'm, I'm in my 50s I'm widowed, I have no children. I've been having lots of conversations recently with the people who form the Ageing Wthout Children movement. And if people haven't come across that then then go look them up, because they're fascinating. And the statistics for people who are ageing without children are very high. And it's a growing army of which I'm in. And I think, I suppose I started looking from a perspective of, of my COVID knowledge of the health and social care system. And I started thinking about my own future. So I now realize I was terrified. Yeah, I mean, that I don't know whether that's, I don't know whether that's too emotive. Maybe it is 

Gill Phillips  16:31  
I don't think it is. I don't think it is, I think it's honest. 

Angela Catley  16:36  
I realised that I am likely to be a person that is ageing or aged alone, that I am not going to have many or any advocates, family advocates, no children or other advocates because I mean, just because you've got children, it doesn't mean to say that they're effectively advocating for you.  But it does mean you've got more of a chance.

Angela Catley  16:59  
 So So I mean, I know that, you know, just having children doesn't doesn't mean that I know that. But for my personal perspective, I have a brother, he has no children. So I don't have any nephews and nieces from that relationship. I do. My late husband has siblings who have kids. So I do have nephews and nieces through marriage. So I'm not going to be totally alone. You know, but but the thought of losing capacity in older age of entering our health and care system without agency or advocacy, and seeing the options available. The cost of the options . It isn't about money for me, but it is about the cost of the options available. Just really scared me. Yeah. So I think I think Sian, and I started to have conversations coming from both of those perspectives. And from that the When I Get Old campaign movement was recently born, 

Gill Phillips  18:10  
And with a very straightforward name, and that's what I like, you know, when I get old, is it's typical of you, because it's what it says on the tin, isn't that you know,, and I think, when we were talking before preparing for the podcast, we were talking about what we imagined for ourselves for old age, if you like, and, you know, you see David Attenborough, you mentioned and the Queen and in I think a big part of us, I don't know whether we expect that's what's going to happen to us, but we certainly hope that's gonna happen to us. And when we were talking, I mentioned that my mum was involved in a little bit in the ... she was actually quoted as a pensioner who faces our current broken system back in 2013.

Angela Catley  18:11  
Good for Gill's Mum!

Gill Phillips  18:22  
Yeah, so she was in the foreword of a government publication, and I thought I could read the quote because it might make you smile. It's that head in the sand thing, which was ...  Mum was just so wonderful and so independent, and didn't want to be a burden to anybody. She was the sort of person who would help people rather than be helped - very much of her generation. , very stoic and so on.

Gill Phillips  19:25  
(Quoting her Mum) "I don't think I ever thought about needing long term care. But my friends started to go into care homes and apartments and I was urged by the family (so enter Gill) to think carefully.  My daughter took me to some very nice places where people live in their own flat and can mingle with others to chat or be entertained, but I felt this definitely was not for me, or at least for now. My husband had absolutely no intention of moving home. Perhaps it would have been better if we had gone somewhere together. Moving is such a huge decision and of course, irreversible. At least one friend is not very happy despite being in a comfortable sought after home. So I guess many elderly people like me just put their heads in the sand and get on with their lives."

Angela Catley  20:18  
Totally, that's a really, really good quote. Gill, really insightful. Thank you for sharing that.

Gill Phillips  20:24  
Yeah, yeah. And there's another another bit. So it goes on and I  just picked out one more quote.

Gill Phillips  20:24  
(Continues to quote) "In the meantime, the lottery continues, depending on how ill you become, how long it lasts, and how and when you eventually die, that financial outcomes range from free of charge to losing everything."

Gill Phillips  20:47  
So they're the two quotes.

Angela Catley  20:48  
Yeah, just so relevant to our conversation. 
AndI think that the thing that I said to you yesterday that you jokingly said we might use for the title of this podcast. It's the generally people of, of my age, maybe a bit younger, maybe a bit older. You know, we go … we have our fingers in our ears and we go La, La, La, La,La …. Oh, heck. And that was ...

Gill Phillips  21:12  
No, more than…. it was more northern!

Angela Catley  21:16  
You see, I've gone, I've gone posh now you're recording Gill. Oooh, heck . So there's a kind of I don't know, “that's not going to be us”. Isn’t it?, "No, no, we're going to be David Attenborough., we're going to be Judi Dench", you know, we're going to be one of those people who I talked to Gill. I talked about the 'them and us' in this, you know, and it feels to me. Like, there's 'us older people', and there's' them older people'. And I think the older people are all of us...  until we need some help. Yes. And then we flip over into a whole other species, which is the ‘them older people’. And I think, I think in our minds myself, and people a bit younger and a bit older, are forever going to be 'us'. You know, we're never going to be ‘them’, you know, and I think that we don't plan to be them. Because, because that's never going to be our reality. You know, there is that La, La, La, La. And then suddenly, we’re them. And we can't quite understand how we got there. You know, and not only are we them, but we’re then faced with a choice from a really small range of support options. Sometimes we're not given that choice at all. Sometimes that choice is made by hospital professionals or, or other people who, who decide what's best for us somehow, what we want and need. We've lost, we've lost the ability for that choice ,

Gill Phillips  23:04  
 Or expedience, in terms of what's available at that time. Pure chance.

Angela Catley  23:10  
Yeah, chance. And then we find that the range of options available to us are really very narrow. And I have ... here this is not about being anti home care You know, I think for some people, those choices are exactly what they would want and need, and they should be always allowed to choose those things - and good on them. But I think for people for whom those choices are not what they want, there should be and could be alternatives. There's a new care home, just been just opened, not far from my house. And I found out from from a friend of a friend a couple of weeks ago, that the fees are £1800 a week. Yeah. And it's not unusual. No, and I'm not … I don't particularly have a problem with that at all. Really, you know, I know that. That running residential …, you know, I used to a residential care home. I know how expensive it is to run that type of service. I'm not always sure, in all instances, that the money that is charged translates into into really good terms and conditions or salaries for staff.. You know, I'm not always sure, you know, in some instances, not all instances, but in some instances, you know, just feel like yeah, it just felt like if the money translated into better terms and conditions for staff, then perhaps the experience for people could and would be better, that the staff consistency, the retention, you know, all of that would … 

Gill Phillips  24:51  
Staff enjoying their jobs and choosing to come to work and think of creative things to do. Yeah,, all of that value …  if the people who are doing the caring feel valued. The people being cared for are valued. 

Angela Catley  25:03  
Absolutely. But this isn't really about knocking all that particularly, you know, because I think for some providers of those types of services as for some of the people they support, that's absolutely correct. You know, and I'm not questioning that at all. Really. I think what I'm questioning for my own personal position. What the heck could I do with 1800 pounds a week?.

Gill Phillips  25:29  
So I can see your eyes light up? Yeah, it's big money. 

Angela Catley  25:33  
Like what you know, if there was 10 of us, 10 of us paying £1800 week. So we need, that's 18,000 pounds a week.

Gill Phillips  25:42  
So we need we need to get eight mates here. Don't we?

Angela Catley  25:44  
Well I know that that's, that's for me. But the spark is self funders. The power of the self funded pound, I suppose. That sounds corny, doesn't it?. And some of those people, it's many of those people will choose what they're choosing now. And all power to their elbow. But I'd like to choose something different. And I don't think that I'm alone. I don't know if I am.

Gill Phillips  26:10  
I'm sure you're not.

Angela Catley  26:11  
But I don't think that I am. And as a complement not replace, to complement the existing system? Could we could we create some different things? You know, some, some diversity of choice? Some? Some? I don't know. Could we do some stuff? With our £1800 a week?. Could we plan how we're going to spend that? Before we're in a hospital bed? Flipping from Us. To them?,

Gill Phillips  26:44  
Yeah, it's so interesting.

Angela Catley  26:45  
I think at the end, that's the you know, because any decision that's made at that point of crisis, you know, it's not good, it's not necessarily going to be the decision we would really want to make, you know, and so could we think about? Could we think about our options before that point of crisis? Could we? Could we come together somehow, and, and plan some stuff? Think about where our £1800 is gonna go and think about what we might be able to do with it. Yeah. You know, all in terms of diversity of choice.

Gill Phillips  27:24  
Yeah, it's brilliant.

Angela Catley  27:25  
Not in terms of off particularly challenging the status quo. I think for me, this is enhancing the status quo, not undermining it really?,

Gill Phillips  27:34  
Well, I think is is just purely about choice isn't it, it's not … you're not saying that anything that exists is not necessarily valid., it's recognizing that it's not everybody's choice. And in this case, it's not your choice. So how could things be different? And I think in terms of my world, and you know, I love connecting people and seeing the connections that come and go and grow over the years. So this reminds me very much of early conversations that I had with Shirley Ayres who was around very much at the beginning of Whose Shoes and I know, she moved more into the digital space and got me involved in a conference in Kent, that was wonderful about early, evolving digital solutions for older people and making sure they weren't left behind. But I know in terms of that whole, avoiding a crisis and choosing something a bit different for yourself and a bit quirky, and basically being able to carry on, I think, being the person that you are, who might never have been interested and still is not interested in certain activities that are almost a given when you get into certain, like a care home for example.

Angela Catley  28:43  
Shirley was a was an early Twitter mentor of mine. She was so splendid when …

Gill Phillips  28:49  
She was.

Angela Catley  28:50  
When I became the Community Catalysts …  We we started a Twitter account, probably, I don't know, 13 years ago or something. It was our first foray into Twitter. And I was nominated as the person to do it. And I was petrified. And I made loads of early mistakes. And Shirley was a real navigator and challenger in those early days.

Gill Phillips  29:10  
And likewise, really likewise. Yeah. Then also with LinkedIn. So a big shout out to Shirley. Yeah. And another person from my network and friends who come to mind is Zoe Harris, Care Charts and specifically My Future Care. And Zoe's done a lot of fantastic work around advanced care planning, but in that more creative way in terms of an individual and so you know, perhaps to hook Zoe into your your campaign here because it's the bread and butter really, of what she does, of trying to get people to think about these things very young, you know, and just have it as a natural part of your planning for life just as you would do for when you're going on holiday or you know, just sort of normal decisions,

Angela Catley  29:57  
Absolutely

Gill Phillips  29:57  
But to embed it before it's a crisis and for people to really understand who you are as a person and what's important to you and in how that might fit into your, your old age isn't it

Angela Catley  30:10  
And I think there was always a challenge with anything congregate. Any kind of service that's congregate, whether that be a hospital or any … in the fact that the service, the staff are having to support a group, you know, so, so the fact that you know, my favorite tipple is a is a real cider and and your favourite tipple is a glass of Chardonnay Gill,  I have no idea whether that's true …

Gill Phillips  30:35  
Not far off!

Angela Catley  30:37  
And my dad's favorite tipple is a very dark beer and somebody else's favorite tipple is a lager You know, my dad would no more drink a light beer. He just wouldn’t and if he went into a pub that didn't have any dark beer, he’d come out of the pub.. You know. So within any kind of congregate setting. You might think, well, Gill’s wine not beer and everybody else's beer. Right? But the nuance of of that? Oh, I don't know. I don't like watching football. You might like watching football Gill. And if you have a certain team, but you don't like other teams,… the nuance of human beings

Gill Phillips  31:19  
iIm a cricket fan. So you'r way off!

Angela Catley  31:21  
Right! But, you know what I mean, in any congregate setting. You know, it's just got to be so so difficult to get to the nuance of us as human beings.. And I think that that's what I always feel about anything that's kind of congregate. You know, it's much harder. It's not impossible. I mean, you see lovely stories of it working really well, it's not impossible. But it is hard. And it takes a lot of leadership, good leadership. And there's some fantastic strong leaders and organisations operating in this space that are doing that so well. But I think there's also a lot of examples of ones that aren't.

Gill Phillips  32:05  
And it really takes me back right to the very beginnings of Whose Shoes because as I think, you know, my background was in social care, and the beginning of Whose Shoes was really around this agenda that I found very, very exciting. Personalisation, person centered choices. And I think I very quickly realised that nobody at the time, so this was around 2006, perhaps had a clue what it actually was. And that was really where Whose Shoes came from, the idea of looking at things from different perspectives, and trying to discover what was needed. Imagine you've got …, I think, like you, you know, I like to think that most people are good people, they've come into what they're doing for the right reason. But sometimes they’re struggling. So take this scenario, you've got a care home manager who really cares. And you've got some staff who wants to do their best, and you've got residents and you've got their families or friends that want to come in, hopefully not visit as such, you know, you start to get into that language, you know, just come and be with their friends. And you've got catering. And you've got the person who designed the place in the first place. And you've got all these different perspectives, really. So that was really where Whose Shoes came from? What matters to people, and how can you actually make it work. And it was just so fascinating, because they're all valid perspectives. And if you've got the farmer who's used to getting up at five in the morning, and you're trying to run a service, and you've got to employ staff, more diverse populations and a lot more awareness, or at least you'd hope so … their dietary choices and how much these things really matter to people. And I mean, the example I use is that, if I have Weetabix, I literally put the milk on and eat it like within seconds because I like it really crunchy. And it would be almost impossible to serve like that. You know, someone would have to bring me the Weetabix and a little jug of milk, you know. And I saw a lovely example once around the girl who I think it was …The story was around someone living with dementia who had got very upset. They thought they liked a cup of tea. So it's just what you're saying, it becomes a cup of tea as opposed to coffee. Wine as opposed to beer. But my goodness, aren't there choices in terms of how you like your cup of tea. And apparently he'd thrown it across the room. And this girl had the imagination to bring a colour chart from B&Q. I think it was somebody who was non-verbal. And try and get them to point to the colour of tea that would be …

Angela Catley 34:48  
Lovely! Yeah!

Gill Phillips  34:48  
Isn't that a nice story?  
And to actually find out what what mattered to them. And like if the one highlight of your day is your cup of tea, and it's too milky  or too cold or you know, just it's not Yorkshire tea or whatever, then it really, really matters. So you've got the big, absolute big things, haven't you like, where you are and what your life looks like as a whole, but also those day to day, small choices?

Angela Catley  35:18  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I think for me, I mean, in my early days of working on the homeshare project many years ago, I was luckily, in a whole other age do I have to tell you, I was lucky enough to be funded to actually go overseas to admit to where I went, because it's embarrassing. In this days, it's embarrassing, but I went to to long haul places website. And so all sorts of different ways of of designing and and offering support, you know, cohousing models, you know, all sorts of different things. We learned as part of that project about what was happening in Spain and across across Catalonia and in particular, and I just think, I don't know, fury, Assa T, right. There's, there's got to be other ways to do this. You know, there's got to be other ways to be able to support people can, could the older people set to learn from the social care services that are on offer to people with a learning disability, for example, you know, I've got a good friend with a learning disability, who lives with two other people in a supportive living environment, you know, you know, care homes for people with a learning disability tend to be much smaller numbers, don't you don't get these at 100 Buddy care homes for people with a learning disability anymore? So is there anything that could be learned across sectors across countries? You know, could we, I read again, on Twitter, about a care provider organization somewhere in the northwest, beyond something beyond it was called tea? No, I'm not very good at this job, because I'm supposed to grow all these things. But anyhow, where they'd actually set up a children's nursery, coterminous with a care home. So they were, it wasn't, oh, from the nursery fields, it wasn't children visiting, you know, it was actually all been run in one building. And whether it's great, whether it's not, I don't know, but it's creative. It is really coming up with different ways of including supporting, enabling and valuing the tremendous skills of wisdom that people have. So I think, to try and take this forward, we've, Sean and I have got some fantastic support from social care future. We we've got a number of strong and growing number of partners that are supporting us in this endeavor. So we've got the aging without children, people. We've got Jackie Marshall, Cyrus, Jackie's revolution. The guys that commit to catalysts of cars, do we've got a number of partners, we've produced a little manifesto that we're calling. We're partnering with the splendid, Gary backwards and the Gobi platform. So we've got several folks who are supporting us to do this with us. We're not an organization. Today, we're just doing this for positive mischief, JL positive. And we're trying to open a space for conversation. So we're asking people to kind of say, oh, yeah, this resonates with me, I'm interested. And to get in touch to mailers, or Twitter or LinkedIn, and just say, yeah, yeah, let me let me be in this gun. Yeah. Being in the gang is not in any way time consuming. It just means that we'd like to be able to talk to you every now and again. And we're wanting people to start to have a conversation. We've generated three key questions. The first question is about people's experience of social care for themselves or for somebody that they love and care about, and whether it was good or bad. The second question is, in an ideal world, you know, what people would want for themselves and the people they care about from a care and support perspective, our banker, your real pillory, not to just narrow it to what we know. You know, and actually kind of think a bit more, you know, out there, you know, that on a separate from social care future when I started a bit of a Twitter conversation about what we would want for ourselves, you know, and I think that's what we want, we want people to kind of go well, I quite like you know. And then the final question is, who do you know, that is already operating in this space, creating diverse choices? writing research papers at Seeing these questions, you know who else who are natural allies? Yeah. And we're going to be using the Gobi platform to create a bit of a, I don't like to call it a survey, it's much more exciting than that. Yeah. But a little survey thing that we can use to capture people's experiences, ideas and stories. And then we're going to have a bit of a website that where we can where we can put up blogs or stories and actually share. And we're hoping that all of that will, will start to seed some really good conversations about what what might be possible. Yeah. For our, the people we love and care about, and for our future selves.

Gill Phillips  40:42  
It's really exciting. And I've now gone off on one in my head thinking that now that I've drawn you into the world of podcasts, that podcasts might be quite a big part of that. I mean, it's just a way of capturing conversation, isn't it? And they could be like, really short or longer video clips or audio clips, you know, sometimes just people love just listening to stories. And I think that could spark, you know, two people chatting about what matters to them and perhaps, firing off each other in terms of “Oh, I hadn't thought of that. How about this?” I don't know, that might be quite a fun way of just getting people to listen to other people's ideas and grow

Angela Catley  41:20  
No, that's quite exciting Gill., I think I think I'd have to be brave, I might have to get Sian on board with that one. I don't know whether. I've got the bravery. But I think it's a really good idea.

Gill Phillips  41:31  
And it’s horses for courses, isn't it? And it links in with … I think I've mentioned to you the work that Professor Becky Malby has done around universal health care. And I'm working with her to promote the report that she's done, then the Universal Healthcare National Inquiry, which is, is all in the same space. It's all about people and what matters to them. And none of us want to have more and more GP appointments that don't necessarily sort the problem we've got, we want to hopefully find a solution, you know, with people, that works for us, and lets us get on with the lives that we had before we were tipped into ‘them’ or in danger of being tipped into them and to stay as good as we can be. Isn't it doing the stuff, however wacky or valuable or completely … whatever? Just us and our lives, isn't it?

Angela Catley  42:28  
Yeah, for as long as we possibly can, you know, and I think just finding more and better and different ways to enable people to do that. And I think we've already, in our little manifesto, we've already captured five or six different examples of what we're calling glimpses of the future. Maybe it's glimpses of the present, that might help inform the future.. And I think there must be loads more. I don't know if you have you heard of Debenhams, Gil? It's a village in Suffolk 

Gill Phillips  42:59  
No, I don’t think I have. Oh, like the shop? No. 

Angela Catley  43:05  
I know Sian’s had lots of conversations with the folks from Debenham over the years and and they're a village the way I understand it. I haven't been but they are a large village in Suffolk who decided a long time ago. I don't know how long 10-15 years ago, that as a village, they decided that if anybody started to live with dementia within their village, they wouldn't have to leave the village to get the help and support they need.

Gill Phillips  43:28  
Wow.

Angela  Catley  43:29  
So collectively as a village, I think it was a vicar that led it. They decided that they would come together and created a different experience for people who were diagnosed with dementia, who lived in Debenham. And I know Sian’s been having conversations with some folks in … a couple of folks in Somerset. Similar, yes, different types of things happening,

Gill Phillips  43:52  
Right! That’s the one I've heard. . So well, you know, as soon as you explained about Debenham … I don't know about Debenham, but I do know quite a bit about Somerset. So it's happening, isn't it in different parts of the country

Angela Catley  44:03  
It is happening, it is happening and I think it's just about how do we hear about that, learn from it realise that there's other options? There is a you know, Tescos every little helps, there is another way but I think there's something about capturing some of that and sharing it and imagining together I think maybe driven by curiosity, maybe driven by something less furious.. But I think together you know, I think if we plan together in our 40s 50s and older hopefully when it comes to it, you know, there'll be more different options available for us.

Gill Phillips  44:43  
And you mentioned Tesco …  or any other supermarket, and I love the links across my work and we've been doing some work with Midlands Partnership Foundation Trust around making things more joined up for children and families and specifically the latest workshop we did was around mental health services. And again, these community venues as a place, a Tesco cafe, for example, for a worker and a young person to meet and chat rather than having to be a school nurse at school or, you know, through a formal channel in a formal place, at the hospital in a clinic. So I think the way that these are just thinking about people, and what works for them. It is great to see links I think between projects or initiatives that work for older people that the same principles apply for younger people.

Angela Catley  45:39  
Absolutely.

Gill Phillips  45:39  
And it really brought me back. I wanted to mention, one of the things that I think we really did come together with over the years was the fantastic Innovation Challenge in Leicestershire.

Angela Catley   45:51  
Oh, that was fantastic 

Gill Phillips  45:52  
It was amazing, wasn't it? And I was involved in a workshop in a … it was all run by housing associations, wasn't it?

Angela Catley  46:00  
it was funded by the county council. It had a focus on housing associations and coproduction. It offered up to 10 housing associations who had a coproduction project, a small amount of funding to coproduce a vision and then deliver a short project. I think we worked with eight housing associations. Some of them were housing associations that supported older people. There was one that had a focus on people from the Gypsy traveller community. There were two I think that had a focus on ex offenders, though we soon got that language taken out of us, when we realized that that wasn't great language. And it was amazing

Angela Catley  46:46  
It really was

Angela Catley  46:47  
Yeah,  groups of tenants, and they said, we've got a bit of money, what shall we do with it? Together. And my lovely colleague, Helen Turner,

Gill Phillips  46:57  
yes, yes.

Angela Catley  46:58  
When I was at Community Catalysts, she was an associate of ours. She was brilliant. And she managed that project. And I think you were brought in with one of the projects that was around art and older people, wasn't it Gill.

Gill Phillips  47:11  
That's it? Yes, I've got a lovely memory of taking my mum along. And that would have been probably a similar time to when we're talking about “Mum, what we're going to do?” and you know, just sort of getting into thinking about what might suit her. But she was good at art, my mum, and, you know, telling her that there's an art project happening. And I went along with her. And she got involved in doing some silk painting. And I got involved with Whose Shoes working with these people. And there was a fantastic intergenerational project and people from the local school coming in just befriending and chatting with a buddy, who was one of the older people, and so many lovely human stories coming from it. I remember that one little boy, I think was about 10, who didn't have his own granddad and really enjoyed working with this older man. And they kept in touch as if he was his granddad, because it was just a lovely relationship, and his mum would bring him to visit and keep the relationship going. It's all about relationships, isn't it? And they come from everywhere.

Angela Catley  48:18  
Totally. Totally. I was having another conversation on social media last week or the week before with somebody who worked in a care home and was asking about befriending services, and that the discussion was just fantastic. It was all about how can they bring more and wider relationships into the lives of the residents that they were supporting? And it was coming from a really genuine place?. And I went back, and I went, “Befriending services?”. And you know,  we, we had a bit of a discussion, and I was, I was talking about my grandmother who died when she was 100 and a half.

Gill Phillips  48:52  
Wow.

Angela Catley  48:52  
Yeah. And she lived in a two up two down street house in North Yorkshire. And she used to regularly play Scrabble with a neighbour once a week, and they would have a glass of martini and play Scrabble. And then the neighbour didn't turn up … and they’d done this for years. And the neighbour didn't turn up and nobody knew why. And then the neighbour had moved to a care home. Okay. And nobody told my grandma. probably nobody in the family knew my grandma and this lady had a weekly arrangement, right? Yes, they were friends.

Oh, I can hear an aeroplane or something! Is that you, Gill?

Gill Phillips  49:30  
Hmmm. Not personally… but I can hear something …

(Laughter)

Angela Catley  49:46  
And the neighbour never turned up for the Scrabble anda martini and it turned out, when … a bit of digging and carrying on … the neighbour had moved to a care home, the neighbour was living with dementia, and the care home was half a mile away, a mile away. My gran was 98. Didn’t drive. No buses went to the care home. And so the the Scrabble partnership was severed, and my gran was more lonely and isolated as a result, and the Scrabble friend, presumably was more lonely and isolated in the home that she'd moved to.

Gill Phillips  50:22  
Yeah, that's so sad and such a classic. The collateral damage, isn't it? Really? Yeah. 

Angela Catley  50:28  
So how could the family or the care home or whomever support that? Well, to know that relationship exists?. And then … so if somebody had come and got my gran or even organised a taxi for her ... They wouldn't even have had tto pay for it. Right? If they'd said, Yes, Mavis, or whatever is inviting you to Scrabble in her new home.

Gill Phillips  50:51  
Yes.

Angela Catley  50:52  
Will you come? My gran would have gone.

Gill Phillips 50:54  
Of course she would

Angela Catley  50:55  
But somehow that wasn't there. There was no, I don't know, it just all fizzled. It all fizzled through neglect of relationship rather than intention.

Gill Phillips  51:06  
And it's even worse than ‘fizzle’. Really, it sounds a bit … just brutally cut off. I mean, she might possibly never even have heard what happened?

Angela Catley 51:14  
No. Probably didn't.

Gill Phillips  51:15  
If you are really isolated. So I think that's a fantastic example of recognizing people's lives and what's going on and how you come up with something that seems to be a solution for one problem, but my goodness, you weren't aware of how that affected people..

Angela Catley  51:33  
Yeah. And then maybe, you know, maybe six months later or two months later, you know, the staff the well, meaning staff in the care home is saying how do we get Mavis a befriender? Now, for me. That was something really … there is something really core in there.

Gill Phillips  51:50  
That's furiosity. Yeah. But the point is about, she had a friend she had a proper friend that she'd made …

Angela Catley  51:57  
In fact, there might have been 10 people like my Gran. In Mavis’s life. She wasn't called Mavis I made that up. I never met her. I never met her..

Gill Phillips  52:06  
So Angelo, I think, you know, to finish off, I see you as a real action person. And all of this is about action, isn't it? It's about making a difference. So the When I Get Old campaign, what will be the thing that people could do if this podcast has resonated with them, and they'd like to get involved with you, to get involved with the campaign or take it forward in any way?

Angela Catley  52:31  
Oh, thank you. That's a really nice compliment. Thank you. I think I probably am a doing person. I think I'm a doing person and a .., and a saying it like it is person. Which sometimes is good. And sometimes is, is not so good. I think yeah, we would love … Sian and I would love, people to just say that they were for continuing this conversation if any of the thoughts about wanting more and different care and support choices as we age resonates. If any of that resonates, then we'd love people to kind of just say I'm in

Gill Phillips   53:04  
I'm in,

Angela Catley  53:05  
I think if you wouldn't mind sharing the link to our launch blog that social care futures very kindly hosted. And then we've got a little manifesto that you can get to from there,

Gill Phillips  53:17  
Of course, and so people will find that in the show notes for this episode

Angela Catley  53:21  
Thank you

Gill Phillips  53:22  
So if anybody listening is interested, have a look and you’ll find the key links.

Angela Catley  53:26  
Thank you, Gill. And then we're inviting people to just have conversations with their partner with their friends, to kind of .. Yeah, have conversations. And in the next few weeks, anybody who has been in touch and said, “I’m in!”,, we'll send them a link to enable them to record what the results of those conversations and then we're hoping to take all of that, collate the lot, and kind of produce a bit of an evidence base. For a need for more and different

Gill Phillips  53:57  
A Gobby evidence base - am I hearing that right? It's going to be a Gobby evidence base?

Angela Catley  54:01  
Oh, well, I think Gobby is going to be the tool to capture. And then the the output from all that is captured, that will be an evidence base, hearing all the voices of people who have something to say about this topic,

Gill Phillips  54:15  
Fascinating and important.

Angela Catley  54:17  
So we're going to be launching a website, we ran out of tech- knowledge - we bought ourselves a domain name and a WordPress site and then realized we couldn't work it, Gill!

Gill Phillips 54:24
Tech knowledge!

Angela Catley  54:26  
 So So hopefully, everybody's well, were hopefully getting somebody to help us with that. So we'll have a we'll have a web page, and a blog space and a story space. And we just want to open a space for conversation and hear what people are saying about what they would want, what they do want for the people they love and care about and for their future selves.

Gill Phillips  54:51  
I love it. I really do and look out for the series of podcasts that I'm going to do around the universal health care topic and I think you We'll all kind of linked together into this movement to give people more choice and things that actually work for people rather than over medicalising … or over. Stuff Department kind of thinking. 

Angela Catley  55:14  
Yeah, and there's so many splendid initiatives. I mean, we were talking yesterday, hosted by social care future again, we were talking with some fantastic people from Open University. Somebody followed me on Twitter this morning, and I thought, “Oh, you look interesting.” You know, Jackie's revolution. You know, Becky Malby, you know. And 100 others, you know, Briony Shannon and discussions about … there is an army of creative people in this space, isn't there and I think we just need to probably talk to each other a bit more.

Gill Phillips  55:42  
And I think it was Beth Britton on Twitter this morning, who's one of my dementia challengers gang.

Angela Catley  55:47  
Yes, Gill, and there was another person,

Gill Phillips  55:50  
That’s brilliant. So, you're off to a great start already. So thank you so much, Angela. It's been a really wonderful conversation. So lovely to catch up with you after all these years. 

Angela Catley  56:01  
Thank you, thank you, Gill. Thank you for having me as my as my grandma would say.

Gill Phillips  56:07  
Yeah. We have polite grandmas. Thank you.

Gill Phillips  56:10  
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, it would be fantastic if you would leave a review and a rating, as well as recommending the Wild Card Whose Shoes podcast series to anyone who you think might find it interesting. And please subscribe. That way you get to hear when new episodes are available. I have lots more wonderful podcast guests in the pipeline. And don't forget to explore and share previous episodes. So many conversations with amazing people who are courageously sharing their stories and experiences across a very wide range of topics. I tweet as @WhoseShoes. Thank you for being on this journey with me. And let's hope that together, we can make a difference. See you next time.