63: 🎉 Celebrating 10 Years of #MatExp! 🎉

🎙️ Wild Card - Whose Shoes? Podcast 🎙️
🎉 Episode 63: Celebrating 10 Years of #MatExp! 🎉

Join us for a festive and heartfelt episode as we celebrate a decade of the groundbreaking #MatExp campaign, born from the Whose Shoes? co-production movement! 

This special Christmas edition revisits the vibrant energy of our 10-year anniversary event held on October 17th, 2024, blending highlights from the session with moving testimonials, joyful moments, and powerful reflections.

🍋💡🍋 Why listen?

• The Evidence Base: Hear live testimonials and stories that showcase the real impact #MatExp has had on maternity care, as shared by parents, healthcare professionals, and changemakers during the celebration.
• Moments to Remember: From lithotomy challenges and Mexican waves to the iconic #MatExp the Musical, we relive the creativity, courage, and co-production that have defined this journey.
• Hope for the Future: Reflect on the challenges facing maternity services today and the enduring hope for change, inspired by our community's dedication and innovation.
• Interactive Fun: Experience the joy of reconnection through breakout room anecdotes, graphic visuals, musical interludes - and even a live rap!

🍼 Special shoutouts to the incredible #MatExp community who’ve co-created resources, challenged traditional hierachies, and sparked “lemon lightbulb moments” that continue to improve maternity experiences worldwide.

🎄 Whether you’re a Whose Shoes “addict” or discovering us for the first time, this episode is an inspiring celebration of what’s been achieved—and what’s still to come. Together, let’s keep the #MatExp banner flying high!

✨ Listen now and feel the festive spirit of co-production in action! ✨

Links to some resources mentioned in the podcast:
🍋 Celebrating 10 Years of #MatExp - highly visual. Watch on Youtube!
🍋 Whose Shoes comes to Brighton - song and dance and CAKE!
🍋 The Robin Hood midwives in Sherwood Forest
🍋 #FabObs Flo's TED talk
🍋 Nottingham Whose Shoes event
🍋 The new neonatal unit being built at Alder Hey
🍋 Jo Minford and Mary Salama #IntentionalCoffee
🍋 Young parents - Birmingham Families - Whose Shoes event
🍋 #MatExp the Musical
🍋 Fab NHS Stuff - #MatExp collection
🍋 Whose News? - our #MPFTWhoseShoes project - children and families

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Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.

Chapters

• 0:00 Gill Phillips kicks off the celebration with the story behind #MatExp, co-founded with Florence Wilcock. Plus, an original song to set the scene—join in the fun! 🎵
• 3:46 A Special Message from Prof. Jacqui Dunkley-Bent. Heartfelt congratulations from the former Chief Midwife of England, praising the resilience and impact of the #MatExp campaign. 🌟
• 5:23 How It All Began - Revisit the first phone call that started it all—Gill and Flo’s spark of collaboration at Kingston Hospital. 📞
• 7:08 Live Slido Fun. Celebrating friendships, collaborations, and Whose Shoes workshops with interactive polls and shoutouts to attendees worldwide. 🌍
• 10:07 Stories That Shaped #MatExp. The evolution of “Nobody’s Patient,” addressing gaps in care through powerful co-production and poignant parent stories.
• 15:38 Cultural Curiosity & Whose Shoes Workshops - Exploring the simple yet powerful moments—like cooking rice—that spark understanding across diverse backgrounds. 🍚
• 18:58 #MatExp the Musical - Relive the joyful and highly impactful boldness of the #MatExp gang taking centre stage at NHS Expo with live poetry, music, and graphics. 🎭
• 20:38 The Lithotomy Challenge - From NHS Change Day to a nationwide movement, hear how this bold challenge transformed maternity care perspectives. 🛏️
• 25:46 The power of poetry. Helen Calvert’s poignant reading of 'Theoretical Mummy', capturing the emotional journey of neonatal care.
• 31:32 Alder Hey Neonatal Unit - Discover how Whose Shoes? coproduction helped shape a new surgical NICU — complete with Whose Shoes-coloured windows! 🍋
• 34:13 Breakout Room Buzz - Reconnect with old friends and spark new ideas in virtual breakout rooms. What favourite memories did people share? 💬
• 35:47 #MPFTWhoseShoes - can the power and longevity of #MatExp be replicated in children's services? Lyse Edwards and Gill are doing their best!
• 44:23 Catherine MacLennan shares how #MatExp’s energy and actions have created lasting positive changes in maternity care. 💡
• 45:05 Emma-Jane Cushnan reflects on the unique atmosphere of Whose Shoes workshops, where real change is inspired and driven by authentic conversations. ✨
• 48:35 Leanne Howlett describes how attending her first Whose Shoes workshop opened her eyes to the power of co-production and inspired her own work.
• 49:43 Powerful storytelling and poignant experiences cannot always be captured on NHS spreadsheets
• 50:36 Mexican Wave Madness - The energy peaks with a virtual Mexican wave—because #MatExp knows how to keep the fun alive! 🌊
• 54:01 The Power of Hope - Yvonne Newbold shares how Whose Shoes? fosters change through curiosity, kindness, and listening. 💖
• 56:49 Neonatal Vision - A drop-in from Jo Minford to share updates on Liverpool’s new neonatal unit, built with Whose Shoes’ co-production approach. 🏥
• 59:33 Anna Geyer’s Graphic Masterpiece - A live visual summary captures the magic of 10 years of #MatExp—creativity, courage, and connection. 🖍️
• 1:06:12 Kate Greenstock pops in from India - from foot massages during the lithotomy challenge to becoming a midwife and author, Kate shares her incredible #MatExp journey.
• 1:08:47 We end on a high note with the #MatExp RAP —because the women and families need to be centre stage! 🎤

Transcript

Gill Phillips  0:00  
Gill. My name is Gill Phillips and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes a popular approach to co-production. I was named as an HSJ100 Wild Card, and want to help give a voice to others talking about their experiences and ideas. I love chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, Wild Card Whose Shoes is for you. So welcome to the session. We've got Florence here and myself. We are the co-founders of #MatExp 10 years ago, and we've got a song, I think Colin, haven't we to start us off? 

Colin Phillips  0:57  
We have indeed, 

Gill Phillips  0:59  
you can join in the song, if you want to, quite catchy.

Nisha Khot  1:03  
 Is this the dancing?

Gill Phillips  1:06  
Not yet! It tells the story a little.

Song lyrics  1:09  
We're holding this celebration today to mark 10 years of #MatExp. It was exactly 10 years ago that we put Whose Shoes to the test. It had made a difference in lots of topics, including dementia care. But would it work in maternity? The golden question was there. Our first workshop was at Kingston, and some of you were there, and #MatExp became a great platform to connect people who care. It was not so easy 10 years ago, some live far and some live near. Now, Zoom brings us all together. It's so lovely to see you here. We hope you have a wonderful time and connect with old friends and new. Love and lemons will come alive. Let's see what we can do. The #MatExp banner will fly high as we share stories and cascade the connections we've formed, the actions we've taken and the difference it has all made.

10 years of #MatExp have flown by, and it's time to celebrate. 17th October, exactly 10 years. Thanks for joining us on this date. The #MatExp banner will fly high as we share stories and cascade the connections we formed, the actions we've taken and the difference it has all made. 10 years of #MatExp have flown by, and it's time to celebrate. 17th October, exactly 10 years, thanks for joining us on this day.

Gill Phillips    3:46  
Okay, so we've had some amazing supporters over the years, and one of them, I'm very thrilled to say, has been Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent, who was the Chief midwife for England and is now Chief Midwife for the International Confederation of Midwives, and it was just so special when Jacqui sent us this message.

Jacqui Dunkley-Bent  4:08  
10 amazing years of the Whose Shoes campaign, congratulations, Gill and Flo and all those behind the scenes for supporting you. The success of the campaign is a testimony to your strength of leadership, resilience, perseverance, stamina and determination to succeed. I'm sure that mums and babies and their families have had an enriched experience because of the work that you have done with midwives, obstetricians and the wider maternity team, congratulations and happy birthday!

Gill Phillips  1  4:46  
How lovely was that. So how did it all start Flo? Should we tell them in this little clip?

Gill Phillips  4:53  
Oh, I wonder. Who can that be? I'll just answer. Hello.

Florence Wilcock  4:58  
Hello, hello, hello. My name is Florence. I'm an obstetrician at Kingston hospital, and I've been seeing all sorts of dementia workshops in Kent on Twitter, and I'm part of the London Clinical Network looking at maternity experience. Do you think Whose Shoes would work in maternity care? 

Gill Phillips   5:23  
Oh, that's a really interesting question. Kath Evans asked me that a while ago, and the rest, as they say, is history. We had a lot of interactive elements at the celebration event. We used Slido to ask people why they came to the event. The answers were uplifting, celebrating the difference the #MatExp campaign had made, and celebrating the friendships and collaborations it had enabled. The opportunity to connect and reflect and of course, the excitement of getting together and the fun that we always have. We had shoutouts to the lovely people joining us, many of whom we had not seen for ages, including lots of people joining internationally. So the next question, "Where are you in the #MatExp/ Whose Shoes awareness scale, one to five? Never heard of it. You are a Whose Shoes addict. Some of this won't apply to everybody, but choose a number, and we'll see who we've got in the room. So Whoa, 100% of people have attended or run a Whose Shoes workshop. We've got the Whose Shoes gang! Hello, Ann Remmers! (Laughter)

Ann Remmers  6:40  
That's me!

Gill Phillips  6:37  
We wanted to include the clip of your intergalactic super powers. But,  okay ... so it's, it's 50/50, now. We've got Whose Shoes junkies. We've got people who've come to a workshop. There must be somebody who's never heard of it. How about you James? Hi, you've missed our song. Okay, so this is good. This is looking good. So yeah, most people, we've got our gang here today, but I don't want it at all to be cliquey. It's all about bringing new people in. So if we've got some 'never heard of' people, that's great too. So on the pens today we have Anna. Welcome Anna.

Anna Geyer  6:40  
Hi there. Nice to see you everyone, and looking forward to capturing today.

Gill Phillips  7:08  
And we've got Carrie Lewis here as well. They have been our amazing graphic artists over 10 years, and indeed, quite a lot more, more like 20. So we cut to a clip of people doing a 10 years of #MatExp Mexican wave at one of our workshops this year.

Mexican wave chant  7:28  
10. Years. Of ...  #MatExp!!!

Gill Phillips    7:44  
So that was St Heliers, wasn't it, where Flo was absent. And there might be one later at St George's, where I was absent because we get FOMO on #MatExp if we miss out on things. So a very special shoutout to Anna's mum, who's here today, quietly, but Anna's mum's a superstar, who I remember, themed the post its brilliantly, and indeed, judged the cakes up in Dundee. Hi Margaret. So okay, we'll tell the story. We're trying to fit in ... What is it we're fitting in Flo?

Florence Wilcock  8:37  
10 years - in an hour!

Gill Phillips   8:39  
In an hour. Okay, so you've heard the phone call. It all kicked off in 2014 and we did our original maternity experience project with 100 Whose Shoes scenarios and 14 poems, all talking about maternity experience. It morphed into Nobody's Patient. Do you want to say just a few words about thatFlow? And Catherine's on the call as well.

Florence Wilcock  9:02  
So that was they, they, they stole our name and put a #MatExp Challenge Fund out from NHS England of money. And so we thought it'd be rude not to apply for it. And we did a project, Nobody's Patient, which was about women falling through gaps in care. So inspired by the stories of Catherine who's on the call Catherine from the Vilomah Foundation, talking about mid-trimester loss and falling between gynae and maternity and Leigh Kendall, who fell between postnatal and neonatal as well as between intensive care and neonatal and maternity. So women that had unexpected complications in pregnancy. Who did they belong to as it were, and the title of the project came from a tweet that a woman sent. Saying she felt like she was nobody's patient, wandering between the postnatal ward and the neonatal unit.

Gill Phillips    10:07  
Thanks, Flo. So it led to great things, really. And I think of all things, this is something I've been most pleased by over the whole 10 years, the nobody's patient between maternity and neonatal. So much work has happened by so many people to join up., you know the MatNeo quality improvement, but we were delighted that they used our resources at the launch of the MatNeo event in Westminster. So it's the only time we've ever had Whose Shoes bunting looking out onto the Houses of Parliament and Westminster Abbey. And as you can see, Jacqui Dunkley-Bent, who we met at the beginning, was there. This was, you know, seven years ago, supporting us all the way. And Flo of course, dipping into her bag to find some more lemons.

Florence Wilcock  10:59  
And importantly, it was Shrove Tuesday.

Gill Phillips    11:01  
It was! I'd forgotten that! So #MindNbody, perinatal mental health, clearly, was running through everything we were doing. And thanks to Louise Page in particular, who is in Australia at the moment, so can't join us, we managed to do a more bespoke project. So another Whose Shoes project, another 100 scenarios, another 14 poems, and all of these resources have been used very powerfully over the years. So shout out to Carrie (Lewis), because during the pandemic, I was going to take a break, but other people had different ideas, and we did some really special sessions during the pandemic, and I see Carrie smiling, and that really special memories and a great way of bringing people together through some really intensive work that we did during that time. So Whose Shoes is always real viewpoints from real people? So that's how we crowdsource all the different material that we use. And as you can probably tell, it's been quite a story, and we're sort of going through it at break next speed today. So within maternity, just within maternity, really, it's spun off into all sorts of different related topics. Lewisham and Greenwich have definitely led the way with 20 Whose Shoes workshops, and they've pushed me hardest in terms of new topics, gestational diabetes, smoking cessation, better communication around Down Syndrome. Sessions with student midwives and nurses have all come from lLewisham and Greenwich. We've gone into more and more sensitive areas. It's been very emotional. It's been very special. But the one I was going to pick up on really was the work we've done more recently around health inequalities and obviously the very sensitive topic of women from black and ethnic minority communities needing to have a better deal in maternity services and indeed, health care. So just a few quick slides. This is from 2022 I think Rosie Murphy, who I'd love to be on this call today. She's amazing, led a workshop in Croydon where we started to explore this topic, building on the existing HEARD campaign in Croydon. Nottingham, just last year, one of the most amazing workshops we've done, 70 people crammed into an art gallery, wasn't it? And just the most amazing conversations. And Carrie at the time was giving amazing feedback live, and that people really, really related to so difficult topics, but really great feedback. Birmingham, I think, was January this year, again, using some of this new material. And back to Kingston Flo, very recently, part of a big project we were doing

Florence Wilcock  13:57  
for South West London, and we held a workshop at Kingston, and we ended up with a really detailed conversation about how to cook your rice, and how you cook your rice, depending on what country you come from, or Ghana and Nigeria, you cook for rice very differently, and all sorts of different conversations About the very simple things in life that your background alter or adjust.

Gill Phillips    14:26  
Yeah, classic, isn't it? The simple things are so often the things that really make people stop and think, and inspire the lemon light bulb moments. I don't think we've even got lemon light bulb moments in here today?

Colin Phillips  14:35  
I don't think we have, no.

Gill Phillips  14:37  
On we go then. So Flo in your podcast series the ObsPod, there's a particular episode very relevant to that theme, isn't it? 

Florence Wilcock  14:47  
Absolutely! So it's okay to ask some fantastic films made by Teri Gavin-Jones and East of England, and she's done a lot of work. And has a grandmother's group, and this series of films are little films about different ethnic backgrounds that you can listen to, that she's made with those communities to help people understand and talking about not cultural competency, but cultural curiosity. So the idea that you could be competent in someone else's culture or understanding their culture is somewhat idiotic, but being curious and asking questions and feeling it's okay to ask questions is a really important message, and it's a great resource,

Gill Phillips  15:38  
And so is Flo's podcast. So I'm sure a lot of you know about the Obs Pod, but that's a little plug for Flo's podcast as well, which is, again, one of the creative things that's come from this slightly more creative approach to maternity improvement.

Florence Wilcock  15:52  
Yes. And the most recent episode, actually, is with Catherine, who's also on the call,

Gill Phillips    15:58  
Brilliant and very topical, because it was Baby Loss Awareness Week, and then, you know, obviously very important sensitive topic. And my podcast, it's not specifically maternity related at all, but I've had some really great episodes talking to some of you. Mary (Salama)'s on the call, various people that have been podcast guests. Leanne, I think, is joining, and Rachel Cullum, I hope, is going to be here today. So it's been amazing, really, I think Whose Shoes is now being used in maternity and about 100 different NHS Trusts. It's all been like one by one, rather than top down, because we don't do top down stuff. The very best example was a group of women in Manchester going to the CCG and demanding a Whose Shoes workshop. We're coming up to one in Ireland shortly, so we look forward to that. So what one word best describes #MatExp for you? So time for you to do some work again. You remember what to do with the QR code? See if we can get a bit of a word cloud going.

Florence Wilcock  17:03  
I'm loving the Mavericks that's just popped up.

Gill Phillips  17:06  
(Laughter) Was that youFlo?

Florence Wilcock  17:08  
No, no. Someone else. 

Gill Phillips  17:11  
I can see Ann looking cheeky ...

Ann Remmers  17:15  
Not guilty. 

Gill Phillips  17:17  
There have been some Mavericks, I think, going around and stickering people at NHS Expo in 2016 was right up there, and doing virtual fake news with Simon Stevens having a#MatExp sticker, and that kind of thing was quite fun at the time. Okay, we can keep adding to that, but we can move on. It's fun to see that coming through live. So some big stories. So we've picked out some highlights. The most demanding one, what was that? What do you think it was? It was#MatExp the Musical comes to NHS Expo, on the main stage. This was my planning board trying to match Whose Shoes scenarios and poems to what was happening on the stage, to what Anna was recording with the live graphic, to  people reading poems from the audience. NHS England didn't know what hit them really. So at our celebration event, we showed a little film at this point, but here are a couple of the clips of the music which work better on the podcast 

Song lyrics  18:58  
Skin to skin just calms me down, prevents me from wearing a frown. It keeps me warm. My blood sugars stable. I'm telling you, it ain't your no fable ...

Gill Phillips  19:40  
So we had 35 people, all authentically in their own roles, obstetricians, midwives, parents, bereaved parents. It was incredibly powerful. A GP, a student midwife, a Baroness. Did you spot the Baroness? We'd been told not to go up on the main stage. So, one or two people were keener than others, but luckily, I got people to lead from the front who were kind of bit forgetful about where we were meant to stand. And it did make bit more impact. And so it was, it was quite a story, and Sarah-Jane Marsh ... I absolutely must give a shout out to because she, she held, held steady and saw us through. It was really very special, and some of you were actually there on the stage with us. So thank you. So the most courageous Flo, what's the most courageous story? I chose this one.

Florence Wilcock  20:36  
So you chose lithotomy challenge. 

Gill Phillips  20:38  
I did. So,  at this point, we showed the film of Flo's TED Talk, which started rather dramatically, and this was the response that she got. So if you want to know why people were a bit quiet and then laughing their heads off, but obviously about a really serious subject, which is how, again, creativity and different approaches can really stick with people and have a bit more impact. Then you'll have to watch Flo's TED talk, and I'll put a link in the show notes.

Florence Wilcock  21:17  
So how did it all start? It started because of NHS Change Day, which was the idea of people taking grassroots action and doing something to promote change. And a paediatrician had been strapped to a spinal board and carried around his hospital to see what that felt like. And I thought, well, I don't know what lithotomy feels like. I know what it's like to go to theatre and have a emergency cesarean, but I don't know what lithotomy feels like. So I will do lithotomy challenge, and hopefully people will follow suit. And I did it for an hour because I thought that would mimic roughly second stage and maybe some stitching afterwards. I hadn't counted on Helen Bevan and a film crew turning up. And a couple of days before, having said I was going to do this, Jim Thornton actually jumped the gun and went for it first, and it sparked off all sorts of people up and down the country undertaking lithotomy challenge, and is still going actually. So these photos are from when I did the original challenge. But equally, I know people are still doing the challenge, perhaps as part of Perinatal Mental Health Awareness Week One team did it last year. I did it myself in our perineal health conference in May at Kingston. So we're still doing it all the time. I know lots of units have done it, and lots of units have done reflective boards by staff of what words it makes them think of - things like vulnerable, exposed. And it really makes you think, if you can't avoid lithotomy, how to keep some modesty, keep it to a minimum amount of time, and can you avoid lithotomy in the first place? You know, there's a difference between using lithotomy when you need to assist with the birth and women having a spontaneous vaginal birth in lithotomy without any intervention. That just shouldn't be happening. And sadly, it's still true that around a quarter of UK women having a vaginal birth give birth in lithotomy. So there's still a lot of work to do.

Gill Phillips  23:43  
As part of our 10 years of #MatExp celebration, we've been crowdsourcing little videos with some of our movers and shakers over the years, sharing their stories, many of them proud owners of our JFDI badges. What does that stand for? Just Do It! The badges are the highest accolade that people get through the #MatExp campaign. And it included one from fab midwife, Deepa Santosh, who told us how her team had embraced Flo's lithotomy challenge, just one of many, many little stories that underpin the big stories. So on to the next one. The biggest impact. We included a couple of video clips. So again, you can go and see those in the original YouTube film. But we're so proud of this one. It's the new surgical Neonatal Intensive Care Unit in Liverpool. I don't think it gets bigger than that in terms of an impact. I'm just thrilled to bits that it's going to open shortly, and I'm hoping to go and visit it with Joanne Minford, the fabulous paediatric surgeon that we've worked with there. So how did it all start? Helen Calvert, I've got to give a shout out for Helen. She was one of our absolutely top mum movers and shakers at the beginning and throughout the early years of the campaign, really, and she inspired me to write this poem, 'Theoretical. Mummy'. Helen had a son, David, who had heart surgery at Alder Hey hospital, and she lived in Manchester, and she inspired this poem, theoretical, mummy, but it was one of the instrumental things in well, it really sparked the work. She brought me to Liverpool, brought me together with Joanne Minford, the surgeon, and I'm hoping Joanne will join us later on the call. So in Whose Shoes we use a lot of poems. And here is Helen reading the one that she inspired me to write here,

Helen Calvert  25:46  
Theoretical mummy. Six days old, so fragile, so new. He'd been in intensive care. Now moved to HDU. I wasn't too sure what I was meant to do. Still wired up a drain in his tummy. I felt like a kind of theoretical mummy. Okay, come on, Mum, you change his nappy. The voice was abrupt, verging on snappy. You're going to have to learn how to do this. You know at best, robustly encouraging. She was clearly the boss. Years of experience under her belt, or she didn't give a toss. Not a clue how I felt. I felt she wanted to kick my backside. I felt sick. I just wanted to hide. I turned around and walked off the ward. Did nobody see I was anxious or frightened? I started to feel guilty for behaving so badly, and no one suggested I shouldn't feel that way.

Gill Phillips  26:58  
So we had a series of Whose Shoes workshops with Helen and with Joanne Minford, the consultant surgeon, and I managed to get Jo together with Mary Salama, who's on the call, absolutely brilliant. This is my intentional coffee on the Colab conference. The two of them had never met or even emailed each other. And you know how I've just love to bring certain people together. This is part of what they said :

Joanne Minford  27:24  
When we started thinking about what our particular issues in Liverpool were and needing to get people together to really get good ... I hate the word engagement, but good involvement across the city and of all the right people, it seemed to me that Whose Shoes was going to kick us off in the right way. Let's face it, so we have in Liverpool, we have a Women's Hospital, which is three miles away from our children's hospital. It's crazy, but that's the way it is. It's not going to change anytime in the next 30, 40, 50 years, and we just have to cope with it, but it gives us some really important challenges, both in experience. You know, you can imagine being a mum and your baby having a surgical problem and having to be transferred and you can't go, and maybe you've had a section. You can imagine being the dad, driving up and down the road, which is Edge Lane. Do I go and see the mum? Do I go and see the baby? And Mum says, you go and see the baby. I need to know what's happening with the baby. Dad's going, Yeah, but I want to be with you, because you're not very well. And oh, awful, awful. And then some of the premature babies that we have looked after at the neonatal unit at Liverpool Women's need surgery too. But then we don't have ... we have a PICU, but it's not a neonatal environment as such and those babies shuttling up and down this, this busy road in Liverpool, three miles, coming and going when they needed surgery, just 100 million opportunities to make mistakes, get things wrong, mess the communication up, traumatise parents. Oh, I could go on forever. So we started working with Liverpool Women's, as Gill sort of intimated there and to try and make some of these issues better. But also we started  to work out how we were going to achieve the standards and what we were going to do in Liverpool to make a commissionable service, really. And so Whose Shoes for our neonatal service, which is now a neonatal partnership across the two sites, so we've still got two trusts, and that's not going to change. You know, in the near future, we've got lots of tensions on either side that mean that we can't come together as one organization. But what we have done is formed a clinically led Partnership, which is supported by both our executive teams, to make a service that works over two sites, but with one team of people. ALL with ONE governance structure, with one set of policies and protocols, so that it feels the same whichever site you're on, and that we're working together and Whose Shoes is, is sort of, for me ... that's formed the bedrock of how we do that. So we've got this wonderful graphic that Gill's shown you, and that for me, and there's one of those up at Alder Hey, and there's one of those down at Liverpool Women's, and they are on display in the wards there. And for me, that's our sense check to keep going back to, you know. So what did people tell us when we did this? What did we say? What did we all say when we did this? Yeah, we said we weren't going to do that. So we're not going to do that. We said that that was a problem. That's an issue, that's, you know, whatever pressures there are, that's not where we're going. This is our true north. And people talk about true north a lot in improvement work. So now, as Gill said, I could talk forever about this. But as Gill said, we've now got, we've just gone out to tender to build our neonatal unit at Alder Hey. It's challenging. I'm not going to lie to you. Partnership working is really, really challenging, but you get the energy to pursue the, I was going to say, pursue the dream. It sounds a little bit intense, that doesn't it? But to pursue what you know is right by having this wonderful shared vision that we've got, having fantastic parents who have been ...

CoLab Chair  31:32  
I am going to stop you two chattering ...

Gill Phillips  31:34  
That's the nature of Whose Shoes that people, once they meet, they can't stop talking when you connect the right people, such a big part of the Whose Shoes campaign has been bringing fab people together, and I'm so delighted they're still in touch, making waves together. So then we showed a clip from the Alder Hey website of the new neonatal unit under construction, now complete with Whose Shoes colour-themed windows, the new NICU will provide the highest level of care for neonates and will be the first to its kind in the country. We're proud of that one. Then people got the chance to go into breakout rooms to meet friends, old and new, and share their stories of what have been their favorite highlights of the #MatExp years. And of course, there were many absent friends. I was particularly disappointed that our friend Jenny the Midwife, Jenny Clarke, couldn't be there, but we did show a little film to showcase her fabulous skin to skin campaign, which has been so influential in ensuring that skin to skin is offered to all women, including those who've had a caesarean birth, while people were in their breakout rooms. We took a bit of time out to see what Anna was up to, who was creating a live visual record of the event.

Lyse Edwards  33:04  
I'm just watching you work now, Anna. No pressure.

Gill Phillips  33:10  
Looks amazing. Anna, 

Colin Phillips  33:13  
Wow.

Florence Wilcock  33:15  
Oh, it's lovely. 

Gill Phillips  33:16  
Oh, you've got the Alder Hey unit. You've got the Whose Shoes windows as well. You are such a star. You've got Marge  the stork there, because we've had Sue on the call, haven't we, and Tracy from Lincolnshire. They're the ones that gave Anna the stork.

Florence Wilcock  33:34  
It is amazing, actually, because you forget about all these things, because 10 years is such a long time. Yeah, actually, oh, my God, there's so much stuff we've done.

Gill Phillips  33:45  
It's been crazy planning. It has been crazy. And we had a great long list of things, didn't we? You know, your Flaming June, yeah, like, literally one line, but it was a whole campaign for a month, and the Advent ... Aargh! We could have stayed there chatting behind the scenes, but it was time to welcome people back from the breakout rooms. And here's Lyse Edwards, who was helping us with the tech, welcoming everyone back. 

Lyse Edwards  34:13  
Welcome back. It's lovely to see some smiles, and I'm so curious about those conversations and what they might enable. I met Gill in a breakout room, and now we're doing some Whose Shoes work together in children and young people. So you never know what's going to happen in a breakout room on an online call. And we would love to hear your stories, but we've got, like, two minutes, so in the chat, there's a link to a Padlet, and if you wanted to share any story that really resonated, that you would like to share with the wider audience. You can do it via that Padlet link,

Gill Phillips  34:44  
And this is something we can keep adding to after the event, hopefully. So I've managed to add Deepa Santosh's video, but it's quite easy to add photos, videos. You know, it's again, it's a tool to play with, but I think it's a great way of collecting stories. 

Lyse Edwards  35:00  
If there are any stories that anyone wants to share in the chat, we can get them on there for you. While you were all doing that, we were having a little look at what Anna was up to and how that is coming on. So here's Anna's visual graphic that's emerging in real time, as it does in those Whose Shoes workshops in such a great way, but I really hope your random connections sparked at least a lemon light bulb moment, if not a whole new project, as it did when Gill and I found ourselves in a breakout room in a Liberating Structures event, and the rest of that story is history too, but  that'll be 10 years of Whose Shoes and children's services. So we'll set the date, shall we for whatever year that will be. All right, back over to you. Then. Gill, okay,

Gill Phillips    35:47  
Yeah. I mean, if people don't know, we're doing a really in-depth project around children and families, with Lyse and her colleagues at Midlands Partnership Foundation Trust, and now with lots of outside organisations and parents groups and goodness knows what, piling in as well, including how things join up better; children's mental health; care-experienced children, children with special needs. And we've got Yvonne Newbold, who's on the call today, who is the founder of Newbold Hope, helping us and an absolutely core part of that project. And we've got this snowball effect of people joining our core team, and basically the ones who are there stay as we move on to the new topics, and then we bring new people in. It's very exciting. So watch #MPFTWhoseShoes. So, OK, a few fun moments recalled. So language, language has been a big part of Whose Shoes within maternity. I think my moment for language was getting the chance to talk to Simon Stevens, then Chief Executive of the NHS, and I was telling him about #MatExp and the story, and he was nodding along and smiling. And then I asked him how he would feel - because we've got a big thing about failure in maternity. You seem to  ... failed induction, failed this, and failed that, and incompetent cervix, all this kind of stuff - So I said, how would he feel if he was told that he'd failed to dilate, and it was all on camera at Skipton House. And of course, none of this footage, like #MatExp the musical, none of it ever gets shared any further. And I can see Emma-Jane laughing. It's the fun side and it's the serious side. So Emma-Jane's heart graphics were amazing, and capturing some of those phrases in that really very powerful graphic. So competition time. So as part of Nobody's Patient, we got the chance to have a competition, to get a trust, to have a Whose Shoes workshop, and this amazing midwife called Sally Goodwin, who I was hoping be on the call today, sent us a limerick, and it was from Sherwood Forest hospital, and this is how we announced the competition winners. Again, I'm afraid you'll have to look on my YouTube channel for a fantastic little one minute video of midwives scratching their heads at Sherwood Forest, wondering how to do service improvement, and being helped by Robin Hood. But because it's Christmas, I'll play the theme song,

Song lyrics  36:00  
Robin Hood. Robin Hood riding through the Glen. Robin Hood. Robin Hood with his band of men, feared by the bad, loved by the good, Robin Hood, Robin Hood. Robin Hood, he called the greatest archers through a tavern on the green they vowed to help the people of the king. They handled all the trouble on the English country scene, and still found plenty of time to sing. Robin Hood. Robin Hood riding through the Glen. Robin Hood. Robin Hood with his band of men feared by the good, Robin, Robin, Robin Hood.

Gill Phillips  39:35  
So I'll leave it to you to imagine Malcolm, Yvonne Newbold partner, dancing around the kitchen to that theme song from his boyhood during our session. So over to you, Flo. Why have we chosen this one?

Florence Wilcock  39:51  
So we were running a Whose Shoes workshop in Brighton, and it was held on International Women's Day. So. And on Twitter, I saw Nisha, who's on the call, who's in Australia, who I worked with many, many years ago. She's a wonderful obstetrician who now works in Australia, but had worked with me at Kingston. She was doing a dance challenge for International Women's Day. And as a result, I mentioned this to Gill, and we decided to incorporate a bit of dancing into the workshop, and it was led by one of the dads who came to the event. It was completely spontaneous and unrehearsed, and there's a little clip of it in this video.

Gill Phillips  40:49  
So you'll have to look up the one minute video from the Brighton session to see us all dancing. It's on my YouTube channel. 

Woman at the event  41:04  
I speak up when I think positive change can be made.

Gill Phillips  41:15  
So I think this is the call to action - creativity and just doing things a bit differently. So we're throwing the challenge back to you, and we're asking if some of you, and we're going to ask other people who have left, or, you know, weren't able to join the call. Basically, we've got a chance, I think, to showcase at this point what #MatExp has enabled over the last 10 years, because it's really hard to collect evidence, and we've got an NHS Fab Stuff collection. So Terri Porrett and the team there have been really supportive of us. Basically, if we collect stuff, they'll put it up on Fab NHS Stuff. So I think if we do it via our Sandbox / Padlet, whatever they call it these days, and people can add there seems a really easy way that, you know, we don't want to make work for people, if you make a little selfie video or just something really simple on a phone, and, you know, I think it's typical kind of #MatExp  style. We don't know what we're going to get or how many, but depending on on, you know, the content, we can sort of see what we can do with it to try and showcase some of the work that you've all been such a an amazing part of over the years. So that's Fab NHS Stuff. That's one of the stories that's on our collection. So bringing together some of the early work we did around black and ethnic minority communities in Nottingham. Nottingham have been amazing to work with. They've worked closely with the local university, Nottingham University research team, so they've actually written up the results in a way that, you know, it's very difficult to do normally. It's been really hard for us to kind of collect evidence over the years, because we're busy doing the next thing and similarly, Lyse with our children's project, is using Sway newsletters as a fantastic way of collecting what we're doing going along. And if people ask, you just have a link to share with so the more stuff we can do like that for maternity, the better. And we did a live word cloud collecting words and short phrases about how people felt coming along to this event. And it was really lovely and energizing. That's really nice already. I mean, I think that Flo and I talked about it, what was realistic to do, you know, just get a few mates together from the early days, or try and have a bigger session. And we just thought, if it's something that energizes and reconnects people, whoever cames along, that would be fab. Would you say Flo?

Florence Wilcock  43:47  
Totally agree. I mean, we wanted to celebrate and look back. But also, as with everything we do, well what's next, you know, but sometimes it's lovely just to take stock a little bit and think, wow, what have we done? And it's so lovely to see so many people that we've worked with over the years give up their time and come and join us. And none of this could be done without this, this wonderful community. So, yeah, it's really special.

Gill Phillips  44:23  
Is there anyone who hasn't spoken? It's so difficult, isn't it a Zoom session, people that I'm so keen to reconnect with, and we've got Emma-Jane and Catherine, who've been with us from the beginning. Do you want to unmute and just say a few words? It'd be really nice to hear from you ... Catherine.

Catherine Maclennan  44:39  
I think for me that seeing how things have moved forward of the years, and a large part of that has been down to the actions of people from #MatExp  and that energy that it's created to make positive change. So I think there have been highlights for me.

Gill Phillips  45:01  
Thanks, Catherine, and lovely to hear you.

Emma-Jane Cushnan  45:05  
Yeah, it's been really moving. Actually. I was actually sitting last night thinking about all the memories and all the things that was achieved and will continue to be achieved. And I think it's just for me. I can't think of any other co-production event that I've ever been to that has been so wonderful as the Whose Shoes and the #MatExp events. And I think the power that it has to draw people together, to open them up to hearing, especially what you know, families say, and then make a real change happen from that is just beyond words. It's so powerful. And I think, you know, to see that continually changing and evolving is just wonderful and inspiring. So yeah, here's, to another 10 years!

Florence Wilcock  46:03  
Yeah, thank you, you're giving me goosebumps. Yeah, Emma, that was, that was so special. Thanks. 

Gill Phillips  46:11  
Makes it all worthwhile, does n't it?

Florence Wilcock  46:15  
Yeah, it does for me.

Gill Phillips  46:13  
I mean, it's hard to know how to respond to that. I think, you know, my main thought is that it sounds like a cliche, but it is only thanks to all the people who've taken part and all the kind of small campaigns. And obviously, look around the screen even, and you see people who are dedicated to different topics, and for those people to kind of come to the fore and perhaps just feel a bit more inspired, a bit bolder. I think that's a word (bold) that perhaps should be there on our word cloud. You know, I've seen people, I mean, Flo with your creativity. You've become quite a creative #FabObs, haven't you? 

Florence Wilcock   46:16  
Over the years, I have, you've totally unleashed all sorts of things. So, yeah, I mean, we were talking about, obviously, technology's come on. But Gill egged me on to write a blog. Then next it was Advent video stories. Now a podcast. Now Gill is dabbling in AI, and I feel like she's always a step ahead of me. Apart from the podcast, I started that first, but, yeah. I mean, I had no idea that I could do all these creative things alongside my job and incorporate them into my job. And it, it definitely makes life a lot more interesting. 

Gill Phillips  47:36  
That's fabulous. And I can see Lyse smiling because she's always one step ahead of us, and it's been, you know, like a lovely mutual thing. We've obviously dabbled in Sandbox just before you've got there, Lyse, you know, it's really nice to have people to sort of spin ideas with and Liberating Structures. Lyse, that's how we met, you know, through creative approaches. And we've brought some Liberating Structures into some of our Whose Shoes workshops. So you can always look to to find more ways to keep things alive, I think, and a bit of fun.

Florence Wilcock  48:08  
Hi, Leanne. I can see Leanne's just appeared.

Gill Phillips  48:11  
Oh, hi, Leanne. 

Florence Wilcock  48:12  
Welcome!

Leanne Howlett  48:13  
Hello. You all right? Sorry, I'm bit late. 

Gill Phillips  48:16  
It's lovely to have you join us. Lovely to see you ... say a couple of words, Leanne, because we've just had Emma-Jane and Catherine, you know, like from the mums that I work closely with, talking about Whose Shoes and just the whole #MatExp campaign, what it's meant, meant to you, but we've got a very tight schedule, so no rambling ...!

Leanne Howlett  48:35  
Okay, okay, So for me. I just find it so inspirational. Because, I mean ... so when I first went to my first Whose Shoes workshop probably about eight years ago, wasn't it? I think I had a baby and was sort of invited along. Didn't really know what it was or what to expect, but it just sort of really opened my eyes, I suppose to co-production, and what it can look like when it's done in a really healthy and proactive way. And since then, I have been on so many training courses and various conferences and things like, but you just never quite see the vibe and the atmosphere in the room as you do at Whose Shoes. I feel like everyone's so inspired to make change, everyone's so excited, and everyone has all these great ideas, and they actually feel they can make it happen. I just feel like you don't get that in many like, you know, that takes a special kind of something, doesn't it to achieve that? So, yeah.

Gill Phillips  48:41  
Thanks Leanne! And immediately, I can think of moments that have come from your workshops. You know, there are incredible conversations whereby somebody really 'gets' something in a different way. So the lemon lightbulb moments. So, I mean, again, you know, if we can capture some of those, but I think just the way we do things is just a bit ... it happens. And people who see what happens hopefully take those ripples on, without us necessarily being able to or even needing to record it in a formal way. I mean, I know in a, ... I think with the nobody's patient project, I was presented with an NHS spreadsheet and had to fill in what the outcomes were or something. And we had somebody coming along, like really, an incredibly powerful event at St George's with Leigh Kendall, a bereaved mother talking. And I was asked afterwards, well, what difference does it make? And I think, Well, if you've been there and haven't felt that, then you're not the person I'm probably going to be trying to influence, you know. Just get it by a bit of human connection. So, yeah, okay. Well, lovely to see you. Leanne, there's never late. It's always perfect. Okay, we could do a Mexican wave. What do you think? Because we've been sitting for a long time, should we join in with Anna? So this is Anna TWO

Song lyrics  50:08  
(Mexican wave)

Gill Phillips  50:56  
Bonkers, but that was when I wasn't there - wasn't that one I missed? 

Florence Wilcock  51:01  
So that was St George's, yah

Gill Phillips  51:04  
So that was you sending a message to me, because we get FOMO, me and Flo, if we miss things. Well really in conclusion, I think, pass over to Flo. And we've also got our lovely friend Yvonne Newbold here, who is the founder of Newbold Hope. And I think that word hope is just so special. So Flo what are we doing here?

Florence Wilcock  51:23  
So I wanted to acknowledge that it's actually a really difficult time in maternity services in the UK. At the moment, we're inundated with reports about how dreadful it is. There's countless maternity scandals and calls for National Inquiry and all this um, stuff in the media about, you know, really damning about how maternity services are, and I think, and most recently, there was that CQC report. And I think it's a really difficult time, because it's a really difficult time for us to work in the service, but it's also a really difficult time for women. If you're pregnant, you know, you must be absolutely petrified. And so I didn't want to celebrate 10 years and think, you know, job done. Job is far from done. And all the reports, every single one talks about women not being listened to, women not being believed, families almost being gas lit. And I think, therefore, the kind of core theme and underpinning of all the work we do about actually treating people like human beings and talking to one another and communicating properly and using the right language, and that caring is still fundamental to the work that we need to do. So I wanted to not drag everybody down, which is why we thought about inviting Yvonne, who, as Gill said, is founder of fantastic organization called Newbold Hope. Because when you're at rock bottom, the only way is up. And it's kind of hope for the future, isn't it? So I wanted people to think, okay, we're in a tough spot. This is what we've achieved in 10 years. What might the next 10 years look like? Or what is your individual hope, for maternity services, moving forward in the future. So a minute or two to kind of reflect and think, What is your hope? And then that's whether anyone wants to share it in the chat or in the sandbox, or say anything. I don't know, Yvonne, if you want to say anything about hope in general, and your work?

Yvonne Newbold  54:01  
I'm happy to Yes, but I'm very aware that Gill is under a huge time constraint, so I'll try and speed talk and be as quick as I can. Um, absolutely lovely to see you. Your ears must have been burning during my breakout, because we were just singing your praises and your incredible courage at the start of your TED Talk, which is just amazing. The thing is, today has touched on, particularly what you've just said, has touched on a lot of themes that are much wider than simply maternity. Throughout the NHS, people not being heard, not believed, not being listened to. But what today has really given me a lot of encouragement about is I've been sitting in meetings as the so called sort of family representative and various things for 30 years, meetings at local authority, central government and sort of NHS levels, strategy and policy stuff, and basically you say the same things again and again and again, and people say they'll hear and nothing has really changed until probably the last 10 years we are seeing as family representatives, huge strides forward where people are actually - we're not tokens any more. We're actually helping to change policy, and people are listening properly. And I think a large part of that is the influence that Gill and Colin and people like you have put into the Whose Shoes model. it's got people talking it's a ripple effect, but it's, I think, having a much wider effect. So I'm incredibly hopeful for the future. Things will get better if we just listen to people. And I love the fact earlier you used the word curiosity, because if you stay curious, it means you ask those why questions and you never, ever, ever, can become judgmental when you're curious. So thank you, Flo. Huge, thanks. Gill. Huge thanks, Colin. I love you guys. Thank you. 

Gill Phillips  56:28  
That's really nice. Well, thank you. And I see some lovely messages coming through in the chat, and we're obviously coming towards the end. So Joanne Minford has joined us. So  Hi, Jo, because we've been listening to you talking to Mary Salama on that Colab conference. I played a clip! I know you can only drop in.

Joanne Minford  56:49  
Oh yeah, I'm so sorry that I've missed the rest of this event, and it's an absolute  ... it's lovely to see everybody. I'm a little bit made up, actually. It's so nice to see everybody, even though they're on screens. It's just lovely to see people's faces. I really wanted to just drop in and say ... Gill. Gill knows, and some of you will know that we've used Whose Shoes in the design of a brand new neonatal unit in Liverpool, and I've gone a bit quiet. I've gone a bit dark Gill, because it was touch and go for a moment. Touch and go for a few moments. But we are out of the ground now, and we have a steel structure up, and so we have used Whose Shoes to really embed all those principles that Yvonne has just been talking about so eloquently, really, embodying those in a build so that we're no longer talking about Family Integrated Care and how we work together and partner with people to change the face of health care. We are now making it a sort of physical reality as well as just something that we try and embed in our daily practice. So I wanted you to know I've almost got a roof. We've got some staircases.

Gill Phillips  58:05  
Wow, I'm so delighted. And this, genuinely, Jo, wasn't something that people kind of used co-production to try and achieve. It came through the co-production that all the conversations were like, but the hospitals there, Liverpool, Women's Hospital; Alder Hey is over there, that just got in the way of all the things that people wanted. And we had this wish list that Carrie, who's still on the call, came up with for you and a series of workshops, wasn't it, working towards your ... what turned into a business case? 

Joanne Minford  58:34  
Absolutely. And we still have those beautiful graphics on the units on both sides that we, you know, we walk past, we refer to them, our visitors go, "Oh, I like that!". And I say, "Oh yes, because this is this, and this is how we did it, and this is a really good way of doing so it's like, live and kicking, even though, I mean, it feels like a long time Gill since we started.

Gill Phillips  58:57  
I think, one day to come up , come and see you, and come and see it, because it would be so emotional and so amazing. 

Joanne Minford  59:04  
And there's obviously an open invitation, and our handover day is October 2025, so it almost feels within touching, yeah.

Gill Phillips  59:15  
Now 11 years of #MatExp. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jo. We've got. I don't know whether you've seen yet, Jo, but we've got ... Anna has been recording our session live, so we're going to hand over to Anna to have a quite a few minutes. Anna, you've got, you've gotplenty of time, my darling.

Anna Geyer    59:33  
Oh right. Thank you very much. So I've been listening, I've been trying to capture the story of the last 10 years, and I've got various things put in. There's still some work to be done, but what strikes me is just how much has been happening over the last 10 years. I'm just going to quickly whiz you around so that I can change the direction of the camera. Here we go. Then I can bring you in and you can have a look. You'll see that there's Marge (the stork) who has come to assist, who I collected in Lincolnshire, and she comes around on her travels with me, and she has all of the badges on there. So this is trying to capture some of the stuff that's been happening, recognizing that times are challenging. I've tried to pull out the words that people have used that are the things that make this different, I guess so, listening to women, the creativity, it's lovely to see you, that welcoming kind of community, that we have, the bravery that's needed, that the work feels really inspiring, that people feel that they're making a difference, that some of the things that you've been doing is around challenging the language that's there, developing cultural curiosity. It's been exciting. It's been co-production at its best, it's the power to draw people together, and there's hope for the future. Begin to see differences, and things that you're doing are making a difference to people, and it's really important that that continues. So I've got in here the most demanding part of #MatExp, which was the NHS Expo. I'm going to get a stage in there. The most courageous, the most courageous being the lithotomy challenge and the biggest impact, Jo, just as you were mentioning, and Gill's very pleased to see that I've got in the Whose Shoes coloured windows at Alder Hey for the neonatal unit. And it all started on the 17th of October with a phone call between Flo and Gill. Does that sound okay? Is that, well, a fair summary?

Gill Phillips  1:01:50  
It's very emotional, Anna.

Anna Geyer  1:01:52  
Oh good. 

Gill Phillips  1:01:52  
And you and Carrie, you know, at nearly every workshop. We've had one or two other graphic artists. We've had obviously different events without a graphic artist, but the number of, I call them 'Anna's banners', because it rhymes better than Carrie. You'll have to think of an equivalent Carrie, just the number that we've had over the years and seeing them displayed in all sorts of different places, and obviously the small images on social media. And it's just been so powerful. Whose Shoes could not possibly have been the same  without you, and to just drop everything and come and record and talk to us today. Anna, really, really special. Thank you. 

Anna Geyer  1:02:32  
No it's an absolute pleasure, and it has. It's been incredible, hasn't it? Really the number of workshops I think, you know, I've spent my time traveling up and down the country, as has Carrie, listening to some incredibly impactful and powerful stories from women. And I guess for me and Carrie, it's about being able to feel that we're doing our bit in capturing people's experiences and laying it out there for people to see. And what we know is that as a result of those banners that are produced and they're displayed in hospitals all over the country, that there are conversations that are happening that wouldn't ordinarily happen with a wider audience, because it draws people in. And I'm just thinking of a couple of examples of those kinds of conversations. There was one in Cornwall, where the poster was displayed outside kind of head office, rather than in a hospital foyer, but it meant that maternity services were able to have conversations with children's services that they've been trying to have for many, many years, and it was only as a result of a corridor conversation that happened around the poster. That meant that they were able to have some really important conversations. That meant that they were able to work more collaboratively together. And then there was another one, and I think that was the Birmingham one Gill. Do you remember that with families, young families?

Gill Phillips  1:04:01  
Cathy Coombs - and the Birmingham event, yes, I can remember

Anna Geyer  1:04:05  
Thank you. Yes. And we had a room. There was a room full packed with people, and somebody came up to us at the end and said, you know, we've had conversations sitting around the tables here that I've tried to manufacture for the last 12 months, and I've not got anywhere, and today we've finally got the right people in the room, and we're beginning to have conversations. But what we've managed to achieve today would have taken us over six months of meetings to get anywhere near where we are today in terms of the conversations that we're having with each other. So yeah, it feels it's big, isn't it? Big things happen as a result of Whose Shoes workshops. 

Gill Phillips  1:04:43  
So lovely to hear those. And if people take the time and trouble to get back to us, and you know, obviously those quotes and those testimonials, really, but also the little things. And I loved Carrie's story about a woman in labour seeing one of your graphics and finding it was very good pain relief. Tell us about that. 

Carrie Lewis  1:05:02  
Yeah, that was my cousin. Yeah, my cousin in a London Hospital. I've even seen Anna's banners in local hospitals around here when I've had to visit them. And then so I walk in and go, "Whoa, there's one of our posters there! That's good, isn't it?"

Gill Phillips  1:05:22  
And I've had, I think, my friend Tom Holliday, who is another consultant paediatrician I was hoping would pop in today. I love Tom, and I think he saw one of the posters displayed when he went with his wife to an antenatal unit. So, you know, it's quite random, isn't it, and telling me about it, very, very special. Yeah, lovely.

Florence Wilcock  1:05:41  
I know we're almost out of time, but I wanted to give a quick shout to Kate, who's just joined us from India.  Kate was ... I think Kate was at the first ever workshop. She was, she was part of our MSLC, as was, and she gave me a foot massage when I did the lithotomy challenge, and she then became a midwife. So all in the last 10 years.

Kate Greenstock  1:06:12  
Hi, everyone, great. 

Gill Phillips  1:06:14  
And she wrote a book! Tell us about that!

Florence Wilcock  1:06:14  
She wrote an amazing book called 'Flourish', flourish for midwives, all about how to psychologically acknowledge the mega mountains of trauma and the rest that are in our everyday work, and how to actually look after yourself. So yeah, it's so lovely to see you, Kate. I know the time between India is a bit challenging, but thank you. 

Kate Greenstock  1:06:42  
Great to be here and just to be cast back to the 2014. I was there at the original workshop. And yeah, all sorts has come out of that, right? So much has just come out of that. And the spin off conversations are vast. And thank you to you, Flo, for continuing to just push all of those things forward with fun and lightness as well as all the the weight that they deserve.

Gill Phillips  1:07:15  
Thanks, Kate. And I think I'd like to say that first workshop, of course, now looking back, it was the first workshop of something very special. But at the time, it was just going to be, what was it? Flo, one small pilot at one trust?

Florence Wilcock  1:07:26  
Yes, yes.

Gill Phillips  1:07:28  
So thank you, Florence, for being my partner in crime. Over the years, we've come through a lot together. You haven't even waved your books, have you? 

Florence Wilcock  1:07:36  
No, I haven't Hang on. 

Gill Phillips  1:07:38  
We've got various tomes ...

Florence Wilcock  1:07:41  
Yes, but they're all very out of date. So these are my books. So I made this one, and I think you made that one, but I think they only go up to ... so they're amazing. Just to show you, photo books of of some of the antics and things we've got up to over the years. But I think they might only go up to 2017, or something ...

Gill Phillips  1:08:07  
The first five years. Wasn't it?

Florence Wilcock  1:08:08  
Oh no this one. This one does seem to have a bit yeah, because it's got the Lemon Festival, so it's 2019. So yeah, the first five years, yeah. So we need some we need a new book, 

Colin Phillips  1:08:19  
A new one! 

Gill Phillips  1:08:20  
We need a new book! Add it to the to do list. Yeah. So, yeah, brilliant. Okay, well ... oh, the big finale. The big finale! Well remembered, Colin. The big finale. So, to finish, very appropriate, I was hoping that Susanne Remic might be on the call, who's one of our original mums who took part in the #MatExp RAP. Let's see if we can rap the end out ...

Song lyrics  1:08:47  
Sarah-Jane challenged us to do a Rap. To tell you about #MatExp and put it on the map.We mums are here to help Lend a hand. To tell you how we feel and help you understand. We do stuff together. We get things done. Come and join us. #MatExp is fun.

Gill Phillips  1:09:10  
And as you can imagine, there was a hell of a story behind that one, but no time for that now. So what a 10 years it has been. Huge thanks to everyone who has been and continues to be part of #MatExp. Let's build on that hope for maternity services and keep improving the experience of our daughters and all the women who come after them. Thank you. 

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, it would be fantastic if you would leave a review and a rating, as well as recommending the Wild Card - Whose Shoes podcast series to anyone who you think might find it interesting, and please subscribe that way you get to hear when new episodes were available. I have lots more wonderful podcast guests in the pipeline. And don't forget to explore and share previous episodes, so many conversations with amazing people who are courageously sharing their stories and experiences across a very wide range of topics. I tweet as Whose Shoes. Thank you for being on this journey with me, and let's hope that together, we can make a difference. See you next time you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai